Podcast: Flynn Coleman on a Human Algorithm

You’re listening to the Getting Smart podcast, where we unpack what is new and innovative in education. I’m your host, Jessica, and today we’re diving into artificial intelligence and the future of work and learning. Flynn Coleman is an international human rights attorney, a professor and social entrepreneur.

She is a former competitive athlete that speaks five languages. She’s also lived and learned in a dozen countries. Flynn has spoken and written extensively on issues of war crimes, gender equality, behavioral economics and emerging technologies. After a two-year deep dive, Coleman’s new book, A Human Algorithm, explores how artificial

intelligence is redefining who we are. Let’s listen in as Flynn talks to Tom about the future of work and learning. Flynn Coleman, welcome to the Getting Smart podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Listen, how and why did you gain the opportunity to study in so many countries during high

school and college? Indeed. Travel and volunteering and seeing the world has been an incredibly important part of my life. There are many winding, twisting tales as to how that came to be.

One of them is I’ve been a competitive athlete my whole life. Some of my first travels were actually to play on soccer teams all around the world. I’ve also done a lot of volunteering and a lot of studying abroad. With the support of my community and families and friends, I just find that having conversations with people around the world and understanding the humanity that binds us and also the beautiful

pulsing diversity all around us has been such an extraordinary gift. The world being a classroom for how we learn to treat each other better. Through sports, through volunteering, through having those opportunities, it’s been a really important touchstone in my life. Did you have parents that valued travel?

I have parents that supported me and made me feel like I had that safe place to come home. As a result, jumping out of the nest and exploring through sports, through volunteering, through seeing the world, it’s been supported. My parents worked really hard for that to happen.

They didn’t necessarily have that. I think that it was important for them that I had that. Yes, with the support of a wonderful family and village all around me, I was able to feel like I had safety and freedom. What about the roots of your interest in human rights?

Where does that come from? I have a beautifully dovetailed question to the travel. I have always been passionate about and knew that human rights and social justice and supporting communities around the world would be a very important central tenet of my life. There’s a lot of stories that showed me the person that I wanted to be.

One of those happened actually when I was living and playing soccer abroad. There was a family I was staying with that had experienced a lot of discrimination in their lives. When they gave me a place to call home across the sea and became family to me, I saw their struggle but also how they turned that suffering into loving and caring for others.

That’s one of many stories that taught me that we are here to serve each other. We are here to care for each other and we’re here to have empathy and compassion for all the living things we share our only home with. What a beautiful and important lesson to get early in life. You studied in Senegal, Ireland, Italy, Chile, Cambodia, Switzerland, France, Netherlands,

Hong Kong, Fiji. I’ve probably left out a few but if you had to pick out one interesting place to learn, what would that be? What was the combination of place and the course of study that was really meaningful to you?

What a great question and of course now during our global public health crisis, I’m flooded with emotion hearing you just even repeat the names of these places that are all so close to my heart because finding ways to connect and be together and come together as humanity even when we might need to be more physically distant now is so important and it just shows how human connection is so core to who we are.

Just thinking about that in these times I think is really important. I couldn’t possibly choose one place. I think that home is wherever you’re with people who love you and with a good attitude and some friends you can thrive anywhere. I have learned so much from living in Cambodia and the work I did there.

I was a loose scholar living in Hong Kong in Cambodia and that’s an extraordinary program and they do extraordinary work across Asia, their family to me and also having the opportunity to live in Europe and France. I also did some work on war crimes and genocide in the Netherlands and I have done volunteer and study abroad all throughout the world.

I think that I’ve learned so much from everywhere that I’ve been and especially now thinking about the global public crisis we’re in and of course my life’s work in human rights. What I thought about when you were listing those countries was that we have so much to learn from each other and how to be resilient. People are so courageous and resilient.

So the work I’ve done in Rwanda for example which is an extraordinary place full of people that have survived genocide. They’ve survived the worst crimes against humanity and the resilience and courage of people coming together has inspired me from Rwanda to Cambodia to Chile where I lived studying with a member of the truth and reconciliation commission.

So what happens after atrocity and humanity? How can humanity come together after people are torn apart has really taught me a lot. In Chile one of the examples was I stumbled upon a women’s cooperative that women had come together after the era of disappearances in that part of the world and they came together to learn financial and business skills and to sell their art.

So there’s just myriad examples throughout my life of the resilience I’ve seen from people and I could clearly go on and on and discuss that ad nauseam. I love those sentiments. I just published a book called The Power of Place and the argument there was that every place has something to teach us and we think that can be just going outside where you are,

where you live but boy if you have the opportunity to travel it’s just the richest possible learning experience and I think you have about the best travel learning resume that I’ve ever encountered. Congratulations on your book. I think that’s such an important topic and this idea that we are in relationships with the place around us versus you saw from my book.

We are in an interconnected web with all living things and that includes habitats that includes the places, the mountains, the seas, all the living things we share our home with and it reminds me of the work of Dr. Sharon Blackie. I don’t know if you’ve heard of her work but she talks a lot about place and belonging as well.

What you just published is incredibly important as we think about how we’re relating to the world around us and how we’re all part of an interconnected, interdependent web which includes place. Flynn after you did a JD at Berkeley you went to London School of Economics for a master’s in law.

I have my LSE dad t-shirt on today so why what were you seeking in the LLM at LSE? Oh that’s so cool. Congratulations again on being an LSE dad. I think I got my dad that same shirt as well and I got a tiny little shirt for my friend’s kid who’s also my best friend from LSE.

I absolutely loved my experience at London School of Economics. I also loved studying for my JD. I loved being on campus. I love learning. I love learning from professors, the students, all the activities going on and part of why

I went to study at London School of Economics was to combine my studies of international law of human rights with behavioral economics and behavioral science and incredible work there on happiness economics, behavioral economics, so really being in the heartland of this incredible campus that’s filled with really the cutting edge research and insight on behavioral science and essentially the economics and science of human behavior

and how that affects everything. So I was able to combine a lot of my passions in the work I had been doing with this incredible opportunity to study with some of the people there. And I also taught at King’s College London and at the School of Life, another kind of non-traditional campus when I was there and it was really an extraordinary opportunity

to dive into combining in an interdisciplinary way all these different fields of study. Speaking of combining interdisciplinary things, you’ve crafted a life for yourself that uniquely combines the practice of human rights law with teaching and with writing. What’s the thread that runs through it?

Yeah, I think that this is something that comes up a lot, which is that this is highly interdisciplinary and you’ve worked in a lot of different fields. And for me, I think, and this would be an interesting discussion for your incredible audience, which is the future of education and the future of thinking is going to be a lot more interdisciplinary.

And of course, it’s a winding road. There was a time previously in education, of course, where there was a lot more generalist study and we’ve become a lot more specialist in some ways, which is, of course, something I talk about in the book. As you saw in something, I’m sure you think a lot about.

And so this idea of the interdisciplinary nature of things, I think, is incredibly important because as we move into our future, we’re going to need, it’s going to take harnessing all of our collective intelligence and brilliance in myriad different ways to face what’s ahead. And so I think that thinking about things and really honoring all the different types of brilliance that is out there is going to be incredibly important for all of us,

for educational systems, and for thinking about things in a more holistic, comprehensive way. Well, I love how you’ve combined your practice of the law and teaching and writing. We could probably combine the practice of yoga and mindfulness. The other thing that you’re involved in has really created, I think, an important impact vector for the world.

So we appreciate it. I want to dive into your new book. And as we head that direction, when and how did artificial intelligence hit your radar? Yeah, indeed. I think that, per your really important, great questions here, I think that when we figure

out what matters to us and what our values are, we start to walk through the doors that are open, even if it might be more out of the box thinking. So if we’re here to care for each other and to have empathy and compassion and to widen that circle of humanity, suddenly we can become more flexible in how we get there, in terms of which doors we walk through, even if it seems like it’s a more disparate field.

Obviously, my work is highly interdisciplinary, as I know yours is as well. And in terms of my new book, thank you. I have long been interested at the intersection of human rights and technology and humanity. And one of the touch points was I, years ago, was on one of the first teams that was

looking at using technology, specifically satellite imagery for humanitarian use. And I was working with an organization that was called the Genocide Prevention Center. And even when we had managed to get access to the satellites, negotiate with the Russians, and it wasn’t a cloudy day, and we were figuring out how to use this technology to see things like crimes against humanity, so like mass graves.

And even when it wasn’t a cloudy day and we could see on the ground what was happening, and even when we could see these mass graves, I remember thinking, but we’ve succeeded, but everyone was already dead and gone. And while it’s so important, and I’ve done a lot of work, in fact, on documenting atrocity, I felt we need to be able to do more.

We need to be able to take preventative measures to protect rights and to save lives and to build a better, more humane society. And so down the algorithmic rabbit hole, I went thinking about technology and human rights, which of course now has to mean artificial intelligence as a huge central role in the future of technology.

So that was one of the touch points for me. And since then, I’ve been thinking about these issues and eventually started getting asked to speak and to teach and to write about AI technology and the future of humanity and human rights. And so further down the rabbit hole, I went and eventually what I wanted to create was also something that was approachable.

I wanted to create a book, a piece of writing that everyone felt like it belonged to them and they could understand because this is going to affect all of us. And siloed elitist thinking is not going to help us get there. We should all have a stake in the future of humanity and the society. We’re going to leave for our children’s children and we all should have a role to play.

And that’s what I wanted to create was this human approach to this topic that’s going to affect us all. And I always say, if you don’t read the book and not only understand it, but also feel inspired and empowered, and dare I say have an adventure along the way, then I didn’t do my job because we can all understand this and we should all play a role. So that’s how a human algorithm was born.

So yeah, congratulations on the book. It’s a human algorithm, how artificial intelligence is redefining who we are. Any more on when and how you decided to take on the project? Did that start a year or two ago? Yeah, this is definitely, and of course, as someone who’s also written, this is a question I get asked a lot.

And I have been thinking about these issues, of course, for many, many years. So really, you know, been a student of conversations with people around the world. And of course, it’s a highly interdisciplinary work with a ton of resources and end notes for people that want to dive in. But the, you know, the process of actually writing the book, I would say took about two years. And it’s a culmination of all the work that I’ve done.

But also, as you saw, it encompasses a lot of different ideas and a lot of different research from poetry and literature to science to technology to history to economics to politics to really give kind of a holistic adventure from the beginning as to how we got where we are and what could be our brightest, most hopeful future. And as you know, it takes some time to write a book. And it’s kind of this extraordinary process of, you know, words on the page and then crafting and refining it.

And so I would say it took a couple of years. And of course, one of the hardest parts is that the technology is changing so fast. So there were so many instances where I would do a piece of research or writing in the beginning and then a year later, it was already updated. So trying to create something approachable, accessible and evergreen that was also on the cutting edge was this really kind of incredible challenge. Hey, listeners, it’s your host, Jessica.

I wanted to just take a quick break to share an important resource with you. Recently, our team launched the Getting Through Micro-Site to support educators, leaders and families on the path forward during this unprecedented and uncertain time. There’s something there for everyone, whether you’re just getting started with your transition to distance learning or you’ve had plans in place for a while and now have the opportunity to share your work and guidance with others. We hope this gives you a place for your voice and an opportunity to learn. We know we will get through this together.

Check it out at GettingSmart.com slash Getting Through. Okay, now back to the show. I’m curious. It’s sort of an entry question. Having written this book and spent years studying it, are you optimistic or pessimistic?

Where do you land on that sort of abundance to paranoia spectrum? Is AI going to be the best thing that we’ve ever invented or the biggest existential threat we’ve ever faced? Yeah, I think it’s a very interesting question, especially now as the entire world goes through waves of grief and suffering and just the enormous complexity of what is happening right now. And I think that what people often say sets the book apart, and I have done a lot of research and reading on the topic, is that it’s ultimately, as my work is, optimistic and hopeful. And part of that is because I believe it’s actually a rebellion to be optimistic in these complicated, challenging, devastating times.

I also believe we can’t afford not to be hopeful and optimistic. And I say that, you know, as you saw from some of the chapters in the book, it’s not shying away. I was a war crimes and genocide lawyer. I’ve been the worst in humanity, which also means I’ve seen the best, the courage, the resilience, the incredible perseverance of people all around the world that have managed to triumph over the worst horrors that could possibly be imagined. So I don’t think we can afford not to be, but part of that means facing the fire and facing the challenges, but also seeing the brilliance and the hope and the resilience that is all around us.

And I think that for me, regardless of what happens, I mean, the worst things could happen and are happening. Incredible silver linings can and also will happen, but our future probably lies somewhere in the middle. And I think that headline grabbing now, especially is about it’s the worst or it’s the best. And those things could happen, but I wanted to dive into that messy, hopeful, optimistic middle place, which is probably like what our future is going to hold. And I think that no matter what happens for me, don’t we want to learn how to treat each other better, no matter what is coming?

Yeah, I love that answer. It really, the answer is it depends. It depends on us and what we do right now. And that’s why your book is so important. So we want everybody to read a human algorithm.

On the positive side, I guess one thing that I try to share with the school groups that I visit with that it’s never been easier for a young person to make a difference. This is the, from that standpoint, it’s the best time in human history to grow up. It’s never been easier for young people to start a business, to code an app, to use a smart tool to make a really big difference. Not 20 years from now, but right now as part of a team that’s changing the way we live on the on the earth and AI is making that possible. And it’s going to allow a lot of young people to be part of teams that are creating clean energy and solving the disease challenges that we face.

And I do appreciate how your book was ultimately optimistic about all the emerging use cases. Oh, thank you for saying that. And just another example of why your work is so important, because as I’m always saying to all of my students, you are the future. When we look to them for leadership, they shine. I mean, there’s so many brilliant solutions and answers and ideas that my students and of course, young people and students all around the world are coming up with.

And for me, we are building a brighter world for them and their children who will be. That is what we’re here for. And the leadership and the opportunities to make a difference are like you said, expanding. And you don’t have to make a difference any one way. In fact, I teach a course on how to make a difference.

And one of the central tenets is as you just said it, there’s no one way to do that. We all have different weaknesses and strengths. And together, it’s going to take all of us, but we all have a voice that matters and we all have a story to tell. And also when young people are encouraged to understand how much they matter and how much their voice matters, then they’re empowered to use it. And extraordinary things come from that.

So I just, I have to see your syllabus because I just finished the book on difference making. And in that book, I suggested that young people may want to consider as an early career difference making opportunity. The chance to take on a couple of the misuses of AI. I want to give you a chance to dive into one or all of these. But the areas that I’m worried about are discrimination and autonomous weapons and excessive surveillance.

We’ve talked a little bit about each of those, but which of those should we be worried about? Well, all of them in Shell, all of them. And the other important thing, of course, to note is that this isn’t future use. This is misuse happening now. Today, absolutely.

Everywhere. Right. And it’s interesting. And to be someone who’s writing about human rights and technology, of course, this is a perfect example of why we need people from all different walks of life and all different lived experiences. Even though I’m a human rights lawyer, it doesn’t mean I have the lived experience of other people that are experiencing different kinds of discrimination, which is why, of course, as you saw from the book, one of the main keys is to have diverse, inclusive, representative voices that have different lived experiences.

Because discrimination and bias in algorithms and technology has long been here and it is already here from the criminal justice system to racism to sexism across different tools and applications. Of course, that’s happening. I’ve done a lot of writing on the future of war and weaponry and autonomous lethal weaponry. That is something that is here and growing fast. And of course, mix that with all of the other horrors of war and terrorism.

We have some major decisions to make there and then surveillance, of course. And we’re seeing that now we’re seeing that we’re going to see that growing in the future. And it’s complicated because data and collecting data can be a powerful tool for good. But this idea of privacy and surveillance, it’s not just coming. It’s already here.

So all of these are clear and present dangers and we need as many minds working on them as possible. And so the threats are real. They’re already here. And so so much of this for me is about compassionate moral and ethical leadership and people in the room that are going to stand up for human rights, for other people and say, this is how we need to build this tool for good, because these tools are coming whether we like it or not.

So the only question is how will they benefit or harm us? And for that people that are working with their values front and central. And this goes to the much bigger issues that we’re seeing explode now that I’ve talked about in the book, which is that none of this is possible with our current economic systems and our current political systems. Because if the only focus on building these tools is profit,

you couldn’t possibly also have the focus you need on the common good and the collective humanity we’re going to need to meet the world’s biggest challenges. Let me, whether it’s like 50 different directions, we could go here and we could make this a four hour podcast. Um, let me let me make a connection with today and what’s happening. So excessive surveillance is so interesting. Um,

about three months ago, San Francisco banned the use of, um, of facial recognition by the police and other city agencies and an early example of immune, municipality worried about

excessive surveillance. But in the last few days, uh, we’ve seen this interesting dialogue about mobile apps using, uh, geo tracking that would help us identify

live cases of the virus and would help people, uh, avoid that and and begin to move around their community safely. So an example of where surveillance can be extraordinarily helpful to facilitate life and the flip side of it is, um,

that surveillance can curtail our individual rights. So it seems like a really powerful example of a human rights legal issue that we’re seeing emerging right in front of us today. Very powerful issue and as you and I had discussed, of course, I happen to be writing my next book right in the milieu of everything that is changing, not just at a daily pace, but hourly things are happening.

And for me, our entire focus needs to be on saving as many lives as we can as we go through this global public health crisis and this pandemic. So of course, the first threshold answer to your question is it’s incredibly complex and details are emerging by the minute. And so the history of this will be written over the next years and decades and many years beyond that. But as you said, um, and of course, as you know, my human rights colleagues already just brilliant people all around the world already jumping in to say, how are we going to protect rights?

But also use these tools so that we can do things like tracking and tracing and the things we need to do. And it’s very complex because on the one hand you see some countries that are using these tools that are very effective. And on the other hand, whose rights are being violated in the meanwhile? And we are in danger of leaning and tilting towards authoritarian power grabs in the midst of all the fear and panic and suffering and pain that’s going on.

So I think that one of the things to think about that becomes more difficult in an atmosphere of disinformation and overloading amounts of fake news deep fakes that we’re seeing, you know, spread by social media, for example, in our modern age is how do we hold multiple truths at the same time? And I think that it does come back to this idea of moral courage and ethical leadership because

we can use these tools for such beneficial life-saving means, but the very same tools in the wrong hands can be used to devastating effect. And how are we balancing that? Because, um, different countries also have different relationships to privacy, to surveillance, to what’s accepted, to what they’re willing to accept. And then of course in times of public crisis panic, fear, and also of course, you know, scourges of disease and destruction,

we are all in a different kind of traumatized hyper alert mode. So the answer, you know, is a very simple but complex one, which is that the multiple things can be true at the same time and data is being collected, but you start to get into issues, for example, when only a few companies or a few, um,

autocrats have access to that data. So these are part of the long-term questions about who do we trust, who can lead us and help us wade through these complex times. In the wrong hands, it will be used, um, to discriminate and to violate people’s rights and it will cost lives. But in the right hands, we can build tools that can do things that are beneficial while also protecting people. And so what I always say is there’s so many things we can’t fix,

but there’s so many things that we can if we accept the science, if we have compassionate leadership, if we have diverse voices in the room and if we work better as a global coalition, then we can start to make some headway and going back to your work, so much of this goes back to building from the ground up, starting with young people, um, having compassion and empathy for the others in the world around them, and that’s how we learn to work together.

So obviously this is an unfolding story that is changing hourly and so much remains to be seen, but we need to be able to work together as a global community and have empathy for each other along the way. You talked about the need for a different economic system moving forward. I think what you’ve just described is that we also need a more nimble form of governance that allows, uh, municipalities, states, even

countries, uh, to craft agreements, uh, much more quickly, often holding these paradoxical truths that we want to protect privacy, and, uh, health simultaneously.

Any thoughts on how we could, uh, build more nimble political structures that would allow us to be more responsive to these complex, uh, systems? Indeed. As you saw from my book, Chapter Seven on the Economics and the Politics lays out in pretty specific detail things that, um, are of course haunting us today as well. And so yes, I have some very specific ideas

about how we can be reshaping our economics, our entrepreneurial systems, our political systems, and as you know, I discuss everything from the proper use of, uh, universal basic income to shifting entrepreneurial and quarterly reporting systems at the corporate level, you know, because of course, when you worship corporate gods, that is what you get. And when you’re beholden to profit in a certain capitalistic model or on the political side of things, a partisan two-party system,

you see the deadlocks because some of the devastating things that we are seeing right now, the system isn’t broken. It’s actually working the way it was designed to. And when it’s only designed to work for certain people, you start to see the fiddlers and the cracks that become just a massive

absolute devastation when we’re not working towards equality, equity, empathy, um, compassion for the world in which we live in each other. And so, yes, I’ve laid out in the last book, which is of course, um, hauntingly relevant today, a lot of different things. And for the next book, it remains it remains very surreal to be writing about something, of course, before we knew that this pandemic was

taking place. And so I think that infusing more equity and empathy and ethics into the process, into the leadership and governmental structures, and also doing things like innovating our democracy. We’re starting to see now in real time at a rapid accelerating speed. Some of these changes change is not only possible, it’s the nature of our universe to constantly be changing. And we’re starting to see the type of impetus that it takes for these things to change because we’re all part of these very complex systems.

And they’re becoming increasingly more so. And so for our political and economic, societal, educational systems, we are going to need to have a shift that focuses on what truly matters. And when we, when we understand that, things don’t get easier. They’re still just as difficult, but we understand what we’re fighting for and that we’re here to care for each other as an interconnected system. And so there are going to be a lot of changes. And we can only hope right now that some of those sober linings will be that we can find out what matters, what our purpose and what, what, what truly means something to us. But

you know, the horror of that is the, what the lives that will be lost along the way, especially unnecessarily. And so shifting our systems and not just to be more human centric and to focus on humanity and empathy between human beings. But as you know from the book, kind of one of the things I talk about is a broader world view of including animals, our ecosystems, and our environment and our only home into that equation as to what is deserving of our respect and to what is deserving

of rights and to what is deserving of having dignity. That’s the beginning of a great answer to my next question of what should young people know about artificial intelligence? Sort of more broadly, what, what do you think the implications are for education? Indeed. And of course this is, you know, so much right in the wheelhouse of the work that you’re doing. And as you know, and from the conversation that

we’ve had, and I’m sure your work has shown you the same thing, is that young people are leading the way and have so many brilliant ideas and have so much creativity to unleash. I think that in terms of what young people need to know about AI is, you know, the first contextual issue is that young people are going to have a fluency with these tools that we can’t even possibly imagine. The speed and the acceleration of technology means they are going to have a fluency

that we don’t have now and never will. And so creating this idea that this is the, this choice is, these tools are going to be built and how can we build and use them for good needs to be part of this holistic question of how we’re looping in everyone within this crucible of humanity. So these, the people that are young now are going to grow up around these tools and we want them to feel not only comfortable with these tools, but how they can have a voice in shaping what they’re going to do for our cities and towns and countries and schools and committees

and our communities. And so building in that approach to being empathetic and being creative and being compassionate, which of course, as we now know, our learned traits is part of setting them up, giving them the best possible opportunity to use these tools. So I think not having a fear of what they are, understanding that it’s not something that’s just going to happen to them, but that they can have a voice in building them. And that’s just programmers and coders, of course, but also all of the other parts of society because

AI is going to affect every part of our society and every industry is going to be affected differently. And having some historical context is important. Of course, the first programmers and coders and human computers were women, specifically black women, who were eventually pushed out. And so we need to understand that having that diversity and that inclusive mindset is going to be important because tools aren’t the same as human beings, but they need to be nurtured. And they need to be imbued with the values and the ethics that we want to see in ourselves.

As you know from the book, part of one of the things I suggest is that by trying to infuse things like empathy and ethics and equity into the technology, we become better people in the process. So really looping them in as the future leaders and moving as much as we can away from a fear mindset and one more towards solidarity and one more towards resilience is going to be incredibly important because they’re going to be so fluent with these tools.

We want them to feel like they have a voice in the future and that we’re building this so that they can have a humane society in which to thrive. And it’s a complicated question because it’s happening so fast, but the exclusionary nature of this is very dangerous because people should have a say and a voice in their future. And when they know that they matter, that’s how they start to really take initiative to build a better world. There are some people that hear AI and they think computer science and they think coding

and they add a few coding opportunities for kids in high school. But we’re seeing some leading school districts like Montur schools in in Pittsburgh that are teaching all of their middle school students the ethics of AI. In partnership with MIT and they’re

taking on all the questions that we’ve discussed today. I guess you would think that’s a pretty good idea. Yeah, you’re probably seeing this a lot with what the questions kids are asking and the initiatives. Yes, we’re seeing the start of a bunch of different new exciting collaborations in terms of combining and in interdisciplinary way, philosophy and ethics with human rights and computer science. And yes, that is essential and we need a whole lot more of that. In fact, I’m giving a talk later this year

for a group of professors in the humanities. And how are we including AI and technology and computer science and robotics into the humanities? So we do need to be creating a future of education that is a lot more interdisciplinary because again when we take the ethics out of engineering or when we take the compassion out of leadership, then we start to separate and otherize not just distinct disciplines, but that’s kind of where we start to create those separations where we can’t come up with the ideas we need to solve the world’s toughest challenges. So of course, I think that these interdisciplinary collaborations

are critical and the diversity needs to be academic but not just academic. So we need cognitive diversity because we’re seeing that for example, a lot of these tools are being built by people that went to like the same two schools. So we need cognitive diversity. We need diversity across racial lines and gender lines, different abilities. We need to include people of different abilities. We need to include the disabled community, different ages. We need intergenerational collaboration.

So the idea of diversity needs to go beyond just different types of people, but we need inclusion and representation. So we’re not replicating kind of these same cycles of being segregated and separated. We really need to be harnessing this collective ingenuity and intelligence in a very very holistic way so that we all feel represented like across the prism of human brilliance of all different kinds. And so I think that’s essential and the best way for it to be effective

is to start when people are very very young because we’re born open and accepting but every day society teaches us to be afraid of the other and to be afraid of the things we don’t know and that that’s different across socioeconomic lines and gender lines. So we need to be coming together like never before and as we’re seeing now it’s going to take all of us and so the work that you do and empowering young people to have a voice is just it’s the most essential work we need to be doing.

Thank you for those thoughts. It’s um, let’s hope that what we’re going through does result in this a new mutuality, a new sense of pluralism and that that starts uh starts in our schools. Flynn, you’ve talked about your new book. The next book just a little bit. What’s next for you? What’s the topic that you’re taking on?

Well, um, I am very excited and I’m kind of right in the middle now, of course, especially as we deal with this global public health crisis of seeing that the work that I’ve been doing which I’m certainly builds upon the last book but all of I’ve been thinking about is really just watching this unfolds. Um

is really brought a new level of urgency and relevance to this work that I am doing and that people all around the world are doing in an attempt to bring us together. So the details of are yet to be revealed. I would be so excited to share it with you when they are. I think that it’s something that is along the lines of the important work that you’re doing about building a brighter future

and I would be so excited for feedback and conversations because what you’re doing and what we need to do is to be coming together to have these conversations about how we step into our unknown future best prepared to build a humane society and to work together as a global community to lift everyone up and to support and protect all living things. So I would be super excited to of course continue that conversation and hope. Well, that’s the the next that’s our next podcast Flynn.

Everybody should read a human algorithm how artificial intelligence is redefining who we are. It’s a great general audience book. Flynn, you do a terrific job of explaining the technical terms as well as the policy issues. It’s a great book for

policy leaders. I would love education leaders to to pick this book up. I think it’s a great first book to understand broadly what the what the new innovation economy

is all about. Are there other audiences that you want to reach with the book? Well, the idea of the book is as you so graciously said, thank you so much is that’s for anyone and it’s designed to be everyone from people in education to younger people to of course anyone interested in the future society and humanity and so there is something for everyone and I I wrote it with that in mind because we should all have a voice in the future. It’s for book lovers.

It’s for people that are in technology or who don’t know anything about the fields. But of course you’ll find you actually know much more than you do and I would welcome conversations into here from anyone that picks it up because this I wrote it for you and it becomes something magical only

when people take it and share it with their families their communities in their schools. That’s what it’s for to have what David White would call courageous conversations I would welcome hearing from anyone and just so appreciate the work that you do. Where can people find you online? You can find me at flincoleman.community and you can find me on your favorite social media platforms at flincoleman and I would

Hey, thanks for joining us on the Getting Smart podcast. Oh, thank you so much. The pleasure was all mine. Thanks to Flynn for joining us today. We appreciate your focus on equity and inclusion in this innovation age. For more see episodes 245 with Dr. David Bluestine on working in America and before you go make sure you rate and review the podcast and hit subscribe so you don’t miss out on any future weekly or bonus episodes. That’s it for today listeners. Thanks for tuning in for the Getting Smart podcast. This is Jessica signing off.

You