Jeff Selingo on Who Gets Into College And Why

You’re listening to the Getting Smart podcast where we unpack what is new and innovative in education. I’m your host Jessica and today we’re talking with journalist and author Jeff Selingo about his new book Who Gets In and Why? A Year Inside College Admissions. This book was published in September 2020 and was named an editor’s choice by the New York Times book review. Jeff has written about higher education for more than two decades and is a New York Times

bestselling author of three books. He is a regular contributor to The Atlantic and is a special advisor for innovation and professor of practice at Arizona State University. He also co-hosts the podcast Future You. Let’s listen in as Tom and Jeff talk about what’s going on under the hood of higher ed and what opportunities there are for a more equitable future. Jeff Selingo, welcome to the Getting Smart podcast. It’s great to be here. Thanks for having

Hey, congrats on your new book, but I want to dive in and start with a quiz on American higher education. What percentage of Americans have a post-secondary degree? About a little over a third, believe it or not. That’s a much smaller number than I think most people think. It is. Is that better than it was 20 years ago? Yeah, from about a quarter. And what should it be? What kind of a goal should we do?

I think we should have more than half of Americans. As you know, Lumina says about 60%. But I definitely think we should be in 2020, in a day and age, when jobs are changing as they are, we should be over half. We had Jamie Marisotis on from Lumina a couple weeks ago, and they’ve been long advocates for something like that 60% goal. Do you see higher education changing from something that you do after high school to something that you continue to

access through life? And is that going to be part of how we get to something that’s double the current level of credentialing? Well, if we think of it as throughout life, I’m starting to think that we get closer to 70% or 80% that somebody might be able to get some sort of credential much later in life given their job. I’m not quite sure we should be counting multiple credentials for the same person necessarily towards that goal. But it’s clear to me that in the early 1900s, we had the high school

movement. Because in the early 1900s, nobody went to high school really. And then we had the high school movement that led to really the ability to even do the GI Bill after World War II. Because by the 1930s, a significant portion of, I think it was like 30% or so of Americans had high school degrees by then. So it just seems to me that we’ve stopped this evolution. We had this high school movement, then we had the college movement with the Higher Education Act of the 1960s. And then we

just kind of hit a ceiling and haven’t really done a lot. And now here we are at the, you know, basically at the same stage we were at in the 19th century, or I’m sorry, in the 20th century, now in the 21st century. And we haven’t, I don’t think, progressed enough. We talked to Michelle Weiss recently about her new book called Long Life Learning. She suggests that people are going to live to 100 or 125 so they’re, they could be racking up quite a few

college degrees and credentials during a longer, much longer working career. Right. So this idea that you just stop education at the age of 18 in that realm of living well past 100 and working well past 65. Again, all of these markers in life were set when we stopped working, mostly at 60 or 65. It’s one of the, one of the reasons that it a little bit takes the pressure off for you to go to college first. If you’re really going to be accessing higher education for

over a 60 year career, probably matters a little less where you go initially. Because again, you’re, unless that initial place is where you keep coming back to, right? And that’s, Yes. That’s true. My idea is that your, your, your undergraduate alma mater essentially becomes your, your platform for lifelong learning. Now they maybe not provide everything. They could be the curator of that experience, but you trust them, right? You trusted them enough

to get your undergraduate degree there or to get some sort of post high school credential. It seems to me that if you like the place, you keep coming back to it. It’s almost like when you buy a car and you really like it, you keep coming back to that same brand of, why not come back to the same brand of institution? Yeah, I love that idea. I, it’s, I’m surprised that how many institutions of higher education haven’t really grabbed onto that idea and really, really took advantage of the

alumni network and turned it into a learning network. I think there’s only a handful of really great examples of that. Yeah. And, and, and we really think of the alumni network still as a social network and as a fundraising. And a giving network. Right. Right. That’s a funding. But the, the, the thing about the social network piece of it is that I don’t need my college to connect me to people throughout my life anymore. Cause I have Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn and

other things to do that. Right. So to me, the college, the idea of a college as a network connector is, is very old school. And so, but now what I really need, especially somebody like me, living in this gig economy, where I’m not connected to an employer full time who’s paying for my courses or even recommending courses I should take, boy, would I love to have advising, professional advising, maybe through other mentors that are connected to me through the college.

And then obviously I would have wanted access to courses again. And I don’t think these would need to be courses offered by all of these colleges out there. There could be networks of colleges and they’re curating these courses throughout a person’s lifetime. Jeff, you’ve been studying American high education for 20 years now. It’s a big varied sector, right? About how many institutions are we talking about?

You know, you’re talking thousands, you know, over 5,000 institutions, you know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a large industry, 600, something’s billion dollars. Right. We’re talking, we’re talking a huge industry and I don’t think we appreciate it until right now in the middle of this pandemic when you’re starting to see layoffs in it. And you’re starting to realize that this sector is, is no different than any other big sector of the economy. You know, the

airlines, the hotel, the hospitality restaurants, I mean, we tend to think of higher education not as a workplace, but as a, as a, as a school and where students learn, but these places also employ. That’s a great point, Jeff. And you’re, I think in your podcast last week, you, you talked about, for hundreds, perhaps more than a thousand, these institutions are the lifeblood of a community. And that, and right now during the pandemic, so many of them are shut down

that it’s, it’s really damaged hundreds of these local communities. And we also are at risk of losing hundreds of institutions. And that is going to be really damaging for a lot of smaller towns and cities. They’re the factory of, of, of the, of the modern economy. Right. And, and, you know, I always point to one of my favorite cities in upstate New York, Rochester, New York, home of Kodak and Xerox and Bosch and Lawn and things like that. Right back, you know, a century

ago, those were the biggest employers in Rochester. And today the University of Rochester is the largest private employer in Rochester, New York. And that is the case now, if you go to most mid-sized cities, especially universities with teaching hospitals associated with them, they’re, the university is likely going to be the largest employer. And especially when you go to these small towns with regional public colleges, you know, I’m from Pennsylvania, you know, Mansfield and Edinburgh,

Bloomsburg, you know, all these universities are the, by far the largest employer in these towns. And you do away with them. They’re, those towns are dead. Yeah. I think two podcasts ago, you talked about the consolidation of some of the state university campuses in, in Pennsylvania. Jeff, how many of these universities are selective? Not many at all. There’s really only about a couple of dozen that accept fewer than 20% of

applicants. And probably the way I define selective is they accept half fewer than half. And then we’re only still talking about 200 institutions in the country, 200 out of thousands that accept fewer than half. It’s so interesting because that I think they get disproportionate attention in both the media and in the, in this, this admissions process that we’re going to be talking about today. Right. Yeah. I mean, Ben Castleman, who now works for the New York Times,

who worked for, who worked for Nate Silver years ago, did this piece called Shut Up About Harvard. And it was basically the media just is obsessed with Harvard and the Ivy leagues and, and, and a few select other name brand institutions. And you would think that all Americans went to those institutions when very small percentage of them go there or even want to go there. I think in, in your new book, you pointed out that actually relatively high percentage of young

people get into their first choice or first or second choice. Is that true? Yeah. Two thirds actually end up going according to the survey that UCLA does a freshman every year. Two thirds report that they are at their first choice college. And the average acceptance rate of an American college or university is 65%. So again, most colleges accept most students and most students end up at their first choice college. So in many ways, when you think about the anxiety around

admissions, there really is no anxiety. I think the bigger anxiety is around pain for college, not necessarily about getting in for most American families. The test, ACT and SAT get a lot of attention in this admissions process. And they certainly have this year with, with COVID with all the challenge of, of testing. What, what does your study of admissions lead you to believe about testing? Are you protesting? Does it help? Is it a good thing? Does it promote equity? Is it get in

the way? What? Yeah, I’m laughing, Tom, because on Twitter, you either have to be protesting or anti-tristan testing. It’s almost like, you know, pro-mask or anti-mask, right? Or it’s like pro, reopen schools, don’t reopen schools. Everybody loves being put into corners. And on this one, I refuse to be because I’ve seen both sides of the coin to this. I understand how testing the SAT and ACT are highly correlated with income. And as a result, you have, you have,

you know, mostly students who come from privileged backgrounds getting high scores on the SAT and ACT. That said, I was also in admissions offices and one of the students I followed in the book, one of the students I followed in the book is from Central Pennsylvania, not far from where I grew up. He hit it out of the park with the SAT. He would have never been on the radar screen of any selective college because they wouldn’t have gone to his high school.

Small little rural high school in Pennsylvania, they just wouldn’t have paid any attention to that high school if not for his SAT score. So I really see it on both sides of the coin. And I do worry this year, given most schools are test optional, given it’s very hard for students to take the SAT or ACT, that students, there are going to be some students out there who come from low-income backgrounds who come from under-resourced schools not going to be able to take the SAT or ACT,

and thus they are not going to be on the radar screen of any selective college as a result. Jeff, has college lost its return on investment over the last decade, or does it really matter on the college and the actual degree that you get? Yeah, I definitely think it’s the latter. I think we know that post-secondary education is absolutely critical in this economy, but it depends on where you go. But more so, it depends on

the skills you learn. And we were starting to see this before the pandemic. I think this is only going to grow over time in that employers want to know, can you do the job? And in some ways, where you went to school and the degree you earned is right now a proxy for that. But as we get better at teasing out what graduates actually know, what they’ve learned and where they’ve learned it, I think where you went to college and the degree you earned is going to become less of an issue.

Obviously, you’re still going to need to go to college and earn a degree in something, but the skills are going to matter a lot more. Let’s dive into your book and congrats on your book. I think it sounds like it’s doing really well. It is. It’s selling really well. And in some weird way, the pandemic is, I have to thank the pandemic for it because going back to anxiety, most parents and students are very anxious about the college search process this year,

given that it’s been totally blown up. The book is Who Gets In and Why, A Year Inside College Admissions. Why in the world did you do this? You took a year to do this deep dive, this ethnographic study. Why was it so appealing? It was appealing to me because, as you said in the intro, I’ve covered higher ed for more than 20 years. And in recent years, whenever I wrote about admissions in particular, I would get notes from parents and counselors about how much more

difficult the process was than when they went to college in the 80s or really 90s. Now, as we just said, it’s not necessarily that much more difficult, but they were really talking about selective colleges and universities, those 200 colleges and universities that accept fewer than 50%. And in that case, it is more difficult because most of those colleges get a lot more applications than they ever did before. And from a wider range of students from around the country

and around the world in some cases, and they haven’t grown in size. And so as their application numbers have gone up, their acceptance rates have gone down because they’re essentially taking the same and rolling the same number of students. So I really wanted to know, how do they pick those classes? If they’re overwhelmed with these applications, if they have an avalanche of applications, how are they choosing the students to accept an eventually enroll?

You spent a lot of time at three universities. How did you pick them? How did you get in? I wish that it were some special formula, almost like people think admissions is. But in some ways, it’s as random sometimes as the selection process for admissions is. So I ended up at the University of Washington in Seattle, Davidson College in North Carolina and Emory University in Atlanta. And they were the three of the 24 that I approached who said yes. The other 21 said no.

Would you say that all of those are selective, at least moderate? Yeah, they’re moderate and selective. So the University of Washington is probably the least selective of those three. But it still accepts fewer than 50% of students who apply. Emory and Davidson are both around 15% of students who apply get accepted. And how many students did you attract? I tracked then, I tracked about three dozen students

who were high school seniors that particular year from all over the country, who were applying by the way to all different types of schools and from all different kinds of backgrounds. And I ended up featuring three of them in the book. Give us a sort of a headline response. You spent a lot of time looking at this. Is the process better or worse than we think when you when you really watch the sausage being made? Is it is it a thoughtful process? Is it a thoughtful process?

Yes. Is it consistent? No. Is it fair? No. Is it a meritocracy? No. Everything that we tend to think of as higher education, right? It’s the way we’re going to lift somebody out of the middle class and into the upper class or out of poverty into the middle class. Whatever we think of social mobility, especially among these highly selective colleges, it is not fair. It’s not fair to people at the lowest income levels. It’s also in some ways, I don’t think fair to the people at the

middle and upper income levels because the signals that we’re using are not really strong. And what do I mean by that? I mean, we are selecting students for admission, usually in the space of eight to 12 minutes per application using assets that they send with their application, grades, test scores, high school curriculum, whatever it might be that comes with their application. And it’s all based on their past performance. So we’re using this past performance

to try to signify what somebody might do over four years of college and more important over 40, 50 years of their life. Jeff, you came to understand that schools are either buyers or sellers. I thought that was an interesting framework. Are the selective schools the sellers? They’re the sellers. Yeah, they have something to sell that they have a name brand to sell and they don’t really have to buy students like the vast majority of colleges and universities out there need to and offer these

big discounts in order to get students in the door. And I think it’s a mistake that people don’t quite understand because they might need financial aid, for example, and they might make just a little too much to qualify for need-based financial aid, which is really what the sellers focus their money on. There’s so many people that want to come there that they don’t need to give money to attract people. They don’t need to give them coupons like the buyers do. And so students whose families

sometimes make too much money to qualify for that need-based aid only end up applying to sellers. Sometimes they may not get in and even if they get in, they’re not getting the financial aid they need to actually afford the institution. And so I try to explain this construct to readers so that they’re applying to the right types of places. I thought that framework helped you have the right mindset in terms of your relationship with potential colleges. I think you also note that

particularly during the pandemic, there’s a lot of colleges that are buyers that are actively seeking enrollment and that you can cut a much better deal than you could have a year ago probably in many places. Yeah, I think some of those buyers will become more extreme buyers this year. And again, I compare it to almost the Macy’s coupon. And this is the problem, right? Because Macy’s and all retailers, they’ve conditioned consumers to get discounts. And so it’s the same thing in higher

ed. We have conditioned a generation of parents to expect discounts. And this year, they’re going to expect bigger discounts. And the problem is that there’s this net tuition revenue that institutions actually collect, the actual cash they collect after they give these discounts. According to Moody’s, it’s flatter falling at something like three-fourths of institutions out there. Well, that’s the cash, by the way, that institutions need to invest in buildings and

invest in academic programs and faculty and everything else. I mean, I really think that higher education is in for a major cash crunch here if we just keep discounting tuition to get them in the door. I recently looked at the net tuition revenue of a college for the last 10 years. And it’s a bar graph and it’s flat, right? You can’t run a business and not bring in any more income over a 10-year period because your expenses are going up. And so at some point,

this pricey model of higher education is going to collapse. Jeff, your book includes really great advice for applicants. I guess the big headline that I took away from it is, take control of the process and decide what’s really important to you. Is that right? It is. And I think the best advice that I have for students is, as I said earlier, you have applications are being reviewed in 8, 10, 12 minutes. If I had 8 or 10 minutes with

an admissions officer and an elevator, what do I want to tell them in those 8 to 10 minutes? That’s what you have to think about in terms of your application. And I sometimes think that students don’t think about this as a story about what am I trying to show in my application? That to me is really the best advice I could offer to students. Give us a few more tips that you concluded from the process.

So I think you want to personalize the application as much as possible. Everybody has a 15, at the selective colleges, everybody has a 4.0 something in high school. Everybody’s taken a dozen AP courses or whatever it might be. I think one of the things that parents and students don’t realize is just the depth and breadth of these applicant pools. So you’re going to be like everybody else. So how can you personalize your application, whether that’s in the activities

you’ve done or the essay, to really stand out? I talked a little bit about the story you want to tell. Yes, some of these selective colleges are really good colleges, but your entire list shouldn’t be made up of those. You really need to balance your list between the academic fit of a college, the personal fit or the social fit of a college, and then this financial fit I was talking about earlier. Because if you only apply to highly selective colleges, you might get accepted

to some of them, then you may get a financial aid package, especially if your parents make just a little too much to qualify for an eBase aid, you’re not going to get the financial aid package you need. And so you want to have this balanced list and you want to really have that before you start your search. Because I saw so many students and parents who said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ll put a college, you know, students said I’ll put a college on the list because someone’s nagging me about it,

whether it was a counselor or a parent. And then that’s the college they end up going to at the end because it was the best choice among what was left. So you could prioritize your list, maybe one to eight or one to 10, but love number eight, almost as much as your love number one or two, because that’s where you might be. Talk about the funnel, like how big should you start the funnel and then how do you narrow that down? I would start really wide. One of the things

that and this may be a little different in a pandemic because you can’t travel to campuses as easily, but I always tell students and parents, you know, whatever, in 10th grade, you have a you probably have a big public, a small liberal arts college, maybe an urban private within driving distance of home. Forget about the names, go and visit one of them, right? Or go and visit all of them and get a sense of what it going being on a big public university campus is like or being at

a small liberal arts college. Then you at least have a better sense of that social fit piece. Then you can start looking at names. But I think that we need to start looking up and out because when I talk to students, when they’re starting their search, they might only have a dozen names on that list or maybe 15 because it’s what everybody else in their high school is applying to. And I would start much bigger. I would start with 30 or 40 and then start narrowing down from there.

Does early admissions improve your chances? It does slightly. It used to be much better, but then everybody kind of caught in on the game, meaning students did and they understood that they had an advantage by applying early. So the delta, the difference between acceptance rates and early decision and regular decision have really been narrowing over the last, say, 10 years. It’s still an advantage,

particularly for girls, by the way, but not as much of an advantage as it was a decade ago. Is fit or image more important? Fit is much more important. I always say and I say this in the book, especially parents, I think, sometimes are trying to live their son or daughter’s college search through their own college search. Maybe they were disappointed at where they ended up and they want their kids to

end up at maybe, quote, unquote, a better place. And we’re really worried about how this, the image of college is going to play in our neighborhood and what it’s going to look like on the back, that sticker on the back of the car. All those things matter a lot less than the fit of the college. How would you advise a learner, maybe a family, on the trade-offs between reputation and cost? If you can get into a second-tier school, they give you a bunch of A,

they give you credit for your AP classes, you’re going to be able to get through there for a third of the amount of debt that you would go on to a name brand selective. What’s the right choice? How do you think about that? I think you really want to think about that ROI and especially the type of place that you’re going to, if it’s a less selected place, but they’re going to give you the money and they have a good job placement rate, particularly in that

field. If you’re going to have the option because you’re not spent overly spending on, overspending on education itself, maybe you can go to a more expensive city to intern and maybe then you don’t have to take that high-paying job after college just to pay off your debt because you’re going to now be able to get a job where maybe it pays less, but it has better educational opportunities or has better opportunities to move through the organization. I think those are the things you’re

going to have to think about. It’s more of a balance of trade-offs. I sometimes think that the trade-off of going more into debt to go to that more selective college is not always worth the cost. Boy, it’s dangerous, especially if you’re not in a degree program likely to yield a high-wage employment. Or you’re going to have to go to graduate school or some sort of professional school afterwards, right? It may matter even less where you go to undergraduate. Our mutual friend

Ryan Craig would say, if you can’t get a good deal to go to a selective, take a hard sprint to a good first job. Or maybe start at a community college and try to get some of those early courses out of the way, get a sense for what you really want to do, and then transfer into a four-year college. I actually think that after the pandemic, the 2 plus 2 route is going to become much more popular because I think people are going to want to stay close to home. I think people are unsure

what they really want to do and it’s expensive to waste your time those first couple of years in college. I think overall it’s a much more efficient way of especially if you could have a this direct connection between a college and a four-year. Now, if you’re going to end up losing credits, it may not be more efficient, but if you’re not, it’s a more efficient and less expensive way of getting your degree. I think that’s great advice. What’s the parent’s role in this process?

As a guide, as a cheerleader, but it’s again, it’s not their process. This is too often I saw parents who think they’re a, and we saw this in the Varsity Blues scandal, right? All those movie stars and CEOs. When the judge was asking them why they did it, he kept saying over and over again, why want it to be a good parent because we think good parenting is controlling, I guess, the college search process of our kids. But it is, it’s really about the kids that I followed,

the students that I followed who ended up being happiest, used it as a learning process, right? They’re 18. They’re learning about what they want out of life. They’re going to make mistakes. They’re going to change their mind and that’s okay. Again, this is not an opportunity for us to relive our own college search and to make up for the mistakes we might have made. What can you say after this deep dive into admissions? What can you say about

what the high school guidance system should be? What should the high school experience be so that you’re positioned to make a really good choice? I mean, I really wish as a country we could spend more on high school counseling. So much of counseling, particularly in public schools, as I saw in this deep dive, is really about social and emotional, which is critically important. But high school counseling goes well beyond that. First of all, the number one criteria for

getting into college is high school curriculum and grades. Well, the thing about the high school curriculum is it’s baked in well before junior or senior year of high school. What you take in eighth grade will signal what you’re going to take in 11th and 12th grade and what you take in ninth grade will signal what you’re going to take later on. And so we need much better counseling around college going in eighth and ninth grade, not necessarily just in 11th and 12th. But then we

also need more help in 11th and 12th grade to put students on the right path. This is a really confusing process to most parents and students. As we said earlier, there are thousands of colleges out there. Like how am I supposed to, an individual student, we never went to college before. My parents may have gone to college. And if they went to college, they went to college 20, 30 years ago. How are we supposed to figure this out? And that to me is where the high school counselors come

into play. Your book landed in a really weird year. I guess what might you add now, given the pandemic, an example would be one thing many hundreds of institutions have gone test optional. Yeah, I probably would add a lot more on test optional. I would probably add more about the financial stability of higher education. We’ve been hearing, you know, my mutual, our mutual friend and my co-host of Future U, Michael Horn talks a lot, very often about the number of colleges

that may go out of business. So I would talk a lot more about, you know, the financial sustainability of some institutions, which I’m not quite, I sometimes disagree with Michael on the number of institutions. I do think some will go out of business, some will merge. I think many programs will disappear out of this. And that’s something as a prospective student you should think about. I would also though think about what college might look like on the other side of this

pandemic. This idea of a four year full-time residential experience was, by the way, a really small proportion of Americans were taken advantage of that anyway. Most college students are adults, most college students are part-time students. Most college students don’t go to selective colleges. And I would love to be able to tell the story of perhaps college might look a little different coming out of this pandemic. Maybe it won’t be a four year experience. You know, we also know that

maybe it doesn’t have to be in person all the time. Yes, people love the face-to-face experience. I don’t deny that, especially after this year. But it could be more of a hybrid experience going forward. So I would probably, and in fact I’m starting to plan for the paperback edition, a year from now, I’d probably look at what college might look like. Jeff, on the policy front, you suggest that colleges should recruit all students like athletes.

What did you mean by that? I mean, athletes get a lot of handholding even at Division III colleges. And the thing that I like about athletic recruiting is it’s fairly transparent. In other words, the coach tells the athlete, well, I really need you because I need your position on my team. But more so, we’re going to pre-read your application and we’re going to tell you whether you have a shot of getting in before we go through the recruitment process. Like we could actually do a

lot more of that at scale, I believe now, than just for athletes. I think that colleges can be more transparent about what they’re looking for. Students can be more transparent about what they’re looking for in colleges. We could have more of a matching system. But we can also have students who have a better read early on about whether they have a shot of getting into some of these selective colleges so that we all don’t waste our time, effort, and energy and money applying to them.

America, I think, fell out of love with higher education in the last few years. Are you optimistic about the sector? It’s going through a lot of trials right now, but I think both of us think it’s post-secondary learning is more important than ever. Should we be optimistic about the higher ed sector? I am largely because I’m in it. I’m an optimistic person by nature. Here’s why for two reasons.

One, first of all, these are institutions that have lasted hundreds of years. They’ve lasted through other pandemics, world wars, depressions. Yes, times are pretty bad right now, but they’ve lasted through times that may have just been just as worse, not in our lifetime necessarily, but in previous generations they have. But the second piece is what you just said, the demand for education. And again, it’s how we define education. But the demand for education

is just going to be greater, not only here in the US, but around the world going forward. Now, does that mean necessarily a degree in all cases? Does it necessarily mean a residential experience in all cases? I don’t think so. I think that model will always be there, but I want to take an individual class. I want to take maybe an individual course. I want to learn something today that I want to apply in my job tomorrow, or I’m going for a job next week and I

need to learn a skill. There’s all of this upskilling and reskilling, which are probably overused words, but then somebody has to provide that. Why not traditional colleges and universities is the question I ask. Jeff Selingos, the author of Who Gets In and Why. It’s a terrific book on higher education admissions. Every high school student should read it. I think high school administrators and counselors should read it. I think people in higher education should read it

just because it’s a great description of what is and what could be the higher admissions process. I think policymakers will appreciate the book. Jeff, it’s a great contribution. We appreciate your work. Where can people find you online and learn more about your work? Well, probably the best way is just at jeffselingo.com, which is my website. You can sign up for my newsletter next, which comes out every other week. It’s one of the best newsletters out there. We love it.

I appreciate it. You can follow me on social media and elsewhere, but start at my website, and that’s where you can find out everything. Great. Thanks for joining us, Jeff. No problem. It was great to be here. Thanks, Tom. A big thanks to Jeff for joining us today. For more information on the future of higher education, be sure to check out episode 228 with Michael Horn on Choosing College.

We’ve got a link to your in the show notes as well as on the blog at gettingsmart.com. All right. That’s it for today, listeners. Be sure to hit subscribe so you don’t miss out on any future episodes. And thanks for tuning in for the Getting Smart podcast. This is Jessica signing off.