Dr. Jason Cummins on Leadership and Ways of Knowing

On this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Mason Pashia is joined for a second time on the podcast by Awaachiáookaate’, or Jason Cummins Ed.D. He is an enrolled member of the Apsaalooke Nation, and recently served as a principal at Crow Agency Public School. As an Indigenous scholar and school leader he has innovatively worked to lead schools towards authentically serving Native American students PreK-12 and their communities by implementing culturally sustaining, trauma-informed, and restorative approaches.

Dr. Cummins is currently serving as the Deputy Director for the White House Initiative on Advancing Educational Equity, Excellence, and Economic Opportunity for Native Americans and Strengthening Tribal Colleges and Universities, Office of the Secretary.

Mason Pashia: Hey, I’m Mason Pashia, and today I’m thrilled to be joined for a second time on the podcast by Jason Cummins. Jason, for those who haven’t had the pleasure of hearing your first episode, would you mind introducing yourself?

Jason Cummins: Hello, everybody. My name is Jason Cummins. I’m a member of the Absaroka (Crow) Nation located in South Central Montana. My real name is Aweoggada, and I belong to the Sore Lip Clan. I’m from Lodge Grass, Montana, and more specifically, from Binnayda, an area between the Bighorn Mountains and Lodge Grass. For those from my area, you know where that’s at. I lived in Bapu for quite a while, so I’m happy to be here on the show again. How are you doing, Mason?

Mason Pashia: I’m great, just thrilled to have you on here. It’s been a long time coming, so I’m glad we’re making it happen. On your previous episode, you joined your co-author, Mike Rule, to discuss a book you co-authored. It really focuses on taking inspiration from the Medicine Wheel to inform the design of a School Wellness Wheel. I’ll link to that in the show notes for anyone who hasn’t heard it yet.

Jason Cummins: Yeah, I think it’s a really timely model for how to do school, especially after the pandemic. There are some states and many schools that have adopted it as their way to do school, and that’s exciting work. After the pandemic, I think people woke up to the idea that schooling needs to be more humane. Students are not just reflections of their literacy and reading scores; they’re human beings with dreams, goals, and ambitions. They come to school with all their mother’s and father’s love—or Grandma and Grandpa’s love—and we need to treat them as such. We need a model of school that addresses the humanity of our students. I’m excited that many districts are implementing this as their school model.

Mason Pashia: That’s awesome. In a previous conversation, you told me the story of the Crow people and their relationship with education. Could you share that again for our listeners?

Jason Cummins: It’s my understanding of it, and like many Indigenous people who’ve come on this podcast, I don’t speak for the whole tribe. I speak from my understanding, and I’m open to learning more. I think we were fortunate to have leadership that looked ahead—not that others didn’t, but our leadership really thought about their great-grandkids and beyond. When the boarding schools were established, they were horrific. You can see the report released by the Department of the Interior; it’s disgusting what happened to a lot of communities, and I feel for them. But we had people, like Chief Plenicou, who approached the Catholics and said, “If you give us a day school, I’ll let you have a church here.” Then Chief Pretty Eagle did something similar, as did White Arm and One Goose with the Baptists in the Lodge Grass area. They heard about day schools where kids could go to school and then go home afterward, without being shipped off by train.

Mason Pashia: Right.

Jason Cummins: So, they embraced education early and did their best to influence it. The first educators realized they were guests in our area. It wasn’t perfect, but we retained much of our language and culture. We’re still in a cautious time—while 50% of our tribe is fluent, most fluent speakers are over 40. We’re working to revitalize our language and culture. Have you seen the documentary Exterminate All the Brutes?

Mason Pashia: No, I haven’t.

Jason Cummins: It’s a great documentary on American history from the perspectives of Native and African Americans. There’s a section that shows how colonialism expanded, and the last area exposed to American European culture was right here in South Central Montana and Northern Wyoming.

Mason Pashia: Wow, that’s fascinating. I’ll link to Exterminate All the Brutes in the show notes—that sounds really powerful.

Jason Cummins: It’s on HBO Max, three episodes, and shows a different view of American history. Back to education, Indigenous scholar Lanny Realbird talks about how, just as we adopted the horse to improve our lives, we should gain control of public schools in our communities to make them beneficial. We’ve tried to do that—not just me, but other principals and leaders who came before me. We’re trying to take leadership in our schools, to dictate curriculum and practices.

Mason Pashia: Absolutely. I think that’s an incredible story of leadership. I’m curious—how do you feel the leaders of the Crow people specifically have continued to look forward, maybe especially regarding education?

Jason Cummins: I think just realizing that we had our own education systems—whether it was the sweat lodge or our different cultural practices, like our clan system, which we call “aj maler.” That’s the foundation of our entire education system—the Sundance, or NAC meeting. We had ways to teach how to live, respect, and interact with the world. When we first looked at the Western education system, we didn’t fully realize the assimilative harm that came with it. Now we do, and we’ve tried to address it. But in terms of leadership, there are different forms of it—whether it’s in music, cultural events, or school. People often only think of political leadership, but for me, leadership comes from family, tradition, and reading about the old chiefs.

Mason Pashia: Right.

Jason Cummins: The old way of becoming a leader in the Absaroka tribe required someone to prove themselves. You had to accomplish four different war deeds to demonstrate your courage, fearlessness, and capacity to serve the community. When you could do that, you were recognized as a leader. Nowadays, people have figured out politics—they know how to get votes and check polls. But when they reach a position, they think respect comes automatically, and it doesn’t. Leadership is demonstrated by how you live, how you carry yourself, and how you treat others.

Mason Pashia: That makes sense.

Jason Cummins: Indigenous leadership can be for a specific purpose or role, sometimes just for a particular time. When that time or purpose is over, you’re back as a member of the community. Staying connected to the community in a healthy way is more important than any of the other stuff.

Mason Pashia: Within Western society, certain roles, like teachers or caretakers, aren’t valued as highly as business leaders. Do you see something similar in your society?

Jason Cummins: It’s a bit dissimilar. The views you mentioned are probably more money-centered. In a society that values money above all, those views are common. But in many of our communities, teachers often have stable incomes, so they’re seen as “rich” by students, even though that’s not true compared to other professions. Sometimes, healthcare, government, and education are the only stable jobs, so I don’t think it matches perfectly.

Mason Pashia: That helps. You mentioned a forward-looking aspect, which I think is essential. Often, Indigenous cultures are viewed as traditional, looking backward to keep tradition alive. But as a tribe, how do you see tradition being kept alive on a daily level?

Jason Cummins: In our tribe, it’s practiced every day to the point that we don’t even notice it—like a fish doesn’t know it’s wet. Our students often don’t realize how immersed they are in the culture until they move away to college and feel the difference. How a brother relates to his sister, respect—all those cultural expectations are deeply ingrained. We’re fortunate to have a strong cultural foundation. As Indigenous educators, our job is to connect students to their God-given culture. Before we were born, the Almighty knew which tribe we would be part of, and when I pass on, I’ll still be Absaroka.

Mason Pashia: For sure. I’ve noticed an immense respect and connection to the land in Indigenous cultures that’s often absent in Western society.

Jason Cummins: Yes, but without romanticizing it. Sometimes people romanticize that connection, like we’re “one with the Earth,” but it’s more practical. Our history is tied to specific landmarks. My tribe has always been here with the Bighorn Mountains, and places like Sacrifice Cliff in Billings mark historical events. That connection is also embedded in our language, which is why the school system tried to separate us from our land by erasing our languages.

Mason Pashia: That’s powerful. I remember hearing about a professor living on her reservation despite tough conditions, and when asked why she didn’t leave, she responded, “Because that’s what they want.”

Jason Cummins: Exactly. Many tribes have been displaced but have retained their identity. While we weren’t displaced, our land base was made a lot smaller, and people still want our land, sometimes resenting our treaty rights and hunting rights. It never ends.

Mason Pashia: It never does. I want to pivot a little here. For listeners of the podcast, we’ve done a lot of content around the concept of difference-making over the past few years, which is our take on trying to act in a way that makes the world a better place for others. It’s about change-making, informed by the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals—a framework for positive action. One of the terms we’ve used throughout that process is “mutuality”—the notion that we’re all in this together. There aren’t many decisions you can make that won’t impact others around you. I know you, Jason, use the term “relationality.” Could you provide some context on that?

Jason Cummins: From my point of view—and there’s a bit of risk here, as Indigenous people, we know we’re distinct. We have a distinct identity, and while we’re all human beings, Indigenous people in the U.S. have distinct treaty rights and a social and political identity that we’re born with. Without letting go of that distinctness, we still have relationality. In our school, we were fortunate to teach each student their clan, helping them understand how they’re related to everyone in the classroom. Within our clan system, we have those we respect or consider siblings, and those we can joke and tease with, our “teasing clan.” Teaching kids where they fit in their world fosters positive behavior. We explain the difference between teasing and bullying—teasing isn’t bullying. Good friends laugh and tease, but knowing the difference helps maintain respect and understanding.

Mason Pashia: Absolutely.

Jason Cummins: As an Indigenous person, your identity isn’t just about yourself; it’s tied to your family. When I was a kid, people would ask, “Who are your folks?” or “Who’s your grandma?” When I told them who my family was, they could place me in the community. In Euro-American culture, identity often focuses on individualism—like “I’m a lawyer” or “I’m an engineer.” But for us, identity is about family. Who I am comes from my family. You want to do things right and carry yourself in a way that makes your family proud because if you do something good, it reflects on them too.

Mason Pashia: Do you think that sense of identity implies more localized action rather than a “change the world” approach?

Jason Cummins: I think it could. We all live in different worlds and cultures, and if we’ve never left our background, we think the whole world looks like ours. But if we focus on our sphere of influence—changing the world as we know it—that’s where fulfillment and success come from. It’s like lifting weights—start small, and your capacity grows over time.

Mason Pashia: That’s a great way to put it. I’ve been grappling with the idea that the colonial mindset encourages too big of a sphere of influence, trying to claim more influence than might be natural.

Jason Cummins: Yes, we all have influence in some sphere. If we focus on what we can address, we’ll feel fulfilled. Rather than feeling overwhelmed by huge issues, we should look at what we can do—like showing up to parent-teacher night or making space for homework. Our sphere of influence can grow if we take care of what we already have.

Mason Pashia: For sure. I wish society had better ways to celebrate those smaller sphere-of-influence victories. They deserve more spotlight and conversation. Speaking of spheres of influence, congratulations on your new role as Deputy Director of the White House Initiative on Advancing Educational Equity, Excellence, and Economic Opportunity for Native Americans and Strengthening Tribal Colleges and Universities. That’s a mouthful—do you have it memorized yet?

Jason Cummins: Thank you! I do have it down, but I usually shorten it to “the White House Initiative on Native Americans.” Right now, I’m just drinking from a fire hose with all the information. As a tribal member, parent, and educator, I’d like state education agencies and local schools to start listening to the Native voice. Often, Indian parent committees are created only to access federal funding, and Native parents’ concerns are rarely addressed. Some schools do take Indigenous concerns seriously and make changes, but in many cases, they don’t. This is disheartening, especially in places like Montana, where we have the school-to-prison pipeline. Years ago, the ACLU reported that Native Americans are disproportionately disciplined. When we saw that data, we immediately changed our school practices. Schools should be places of healing, restoration, and empowerment, not punishment.

Mason Pashia: Agreed. Creating space isn’t enough if people aren’t actually being heard. Land acknowledgments, for instance, are a nice gesture, but they aren’t enough by themselves.

Jason Cummins: Right. I’ve seen land acknowledgments, and while it’s a nice gesture, we need to go farther. Recently, I was in a meeting where someone opened with a land acknowledgment, which was respectful and well-crafted. But the very next speaker praised land-grant universities, which were created by displacing Native people to establish universities. It felt contradictory. The first presenter showed respect for Indigenous people, and the next one praised an institution that had removed them. There’s a need for much more awareness around these issues.

Mason Pashia: Absolutely. Hopefully, your new role will help increase that awareness, and conversations like this are a great start. At Getting Smart, we like to end our podcast episodes with an opportunity for guests to express gratitude. I’d love for you to mention people who have really shaped your thinking on these subjects, especially if they have a “linkable” name we can share with our listeners so they can learn more.

Jason Cummins: I’d like to thank my dad, my uncles, and my grandma for their influence, as well as my family—my wife Velvet and my sons—for their constant support. Outside of personal thanks, there are several Indigenous scholars who have shaped my thinking. Sweeney Wind Chief, a Nakota scholar, and Holly Macy, a Northern Cheyenne scholar, have both been instrumental. Alex Red Corn, an Osage scholar, has done work on education as nation-building, and Matthew Johnson, a Piikani educator, runs a restorative practices and trauma-informed school called the Buffalo Hide Academy in Montana. Outside of academia, I’d recommend following my friend Dustin Martin, who highlights Indigenous trail runners on his Indigenous Trail page and podcast. Also, a Hawaiian scholar named Ethan Chang has done great work, and he and I co-wrote Dangerous Leadership together. So definitely check out his work as well.

Mason Pashia: That’s fantastic! We’ll make sure to link to these individuals and resources so our audience can learn more. And just as a disclaimer—we know there are many more people to be thankful for, so if anyone was missed, it doesn’t mean we’re any less grateful. Jason, this has been an excellent conversation. I hope we can continue these discussions in the future, and I’m looking forward to exploring the links you mentioned and sharing them with our audience. Thanks so much for being here and for your patience with my questions.

Jason Cummins: No problem. Thanks for listening to me work through some of these thoughts. Some of these ideas have been brewing for a while, and I finally had the chance to verbalize them. I hope I wasn’t misunderstood, and if I said anything wrong, I ask the audience for grace and understanding.

Mason Pashia: Likewise! We’re in this together. Jason, thanks again for being here.

Jason Cummins: I’m glad to be here.

Links:

• Department of the Interior: Boarding School Report
• Dr. Jason Cummins and Mike Ruyle on the School Wellness Wheel
• Exterminate All the Brutes
• Lanny Real Bird
• Difference Making
• Sweeney Windchief 
• Alex Redcorn 
• Ethan Chang: Dangerous Leadership
• Trail-Cast Podcast