Bob Schwartz on Community Colleges: America’s Hidden Economic Engines

On this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Tom Vander Ark is joined by Bob Schwartz to talk about pathways to opportunity and the role of college, specifically community colleges. Bob’s new book is America’s Hidden Economic Engines: How Community Colleges Can Drive Shared Prosperity, which argues that community colleges need to be in the center of any national education and skills strategy.

Transcript:

Tom Vander Ark: Community colleges are America’s hidden economic engine, according to Bob Schwartz and the Harvard Project on Workforce. I’m Tom Vander Ark, and you’re listening to the Getting Smart Podcast. Today, we’re talking about pathways to opportunity and, in particular, the role that community colleges play. Bob, welcome to the show.

Bob Schwartz: Thank you, Tom. Happy to be here.

Tom Vander Ark: I want to start with a bit of context. About 30 years ago, I became a public school superintendent, and around the same time, you joined the faculty at the Harvard Graduate School of Education after leading efforts at the Pew Charitable Trusts. You helped organize Achieve, which brought together governors and corporate leaders to anchor a bipartisan consensus around education reform. A few years later, when we were forming the Gates Foundation’s education platform, your work helped shape the idea that all kids should be “college-ready.”

Over the next 25 years, we saw improvements in high school graduation rates and more students heading to college, especially to four-year colleges. Last night, I looked up some statistics: immediate college-going rates went from about 60% to over 70% in the last 20 years. But this didn’t end as we’d hoped. States pulled back on college investment, costs went up, and student debt increased. More students attempted college but didn’t finish, leading to the “debt without a degree” dilemma. Around 2018, it felt like America began questioning the value of college. A recent Gallup poll showed confidence in higher education has declined by more than 20 points over the last few years. At the same time, changes in the job market have made technical skills and work experience more valuable than ever.

So, how do community colleges fit into this landscape? Where did the renewed interest in community colleges come from, and are they really this hidden gem of economic progress?

Bob Schwartz: That’s a lot to respond to, Tom. Let me go back to 2011 when I, along with economist Ron Ferguson and journalist Bill Symonds, began working on the Pathways to Prosperity report, which we released that spring. We wanted to examine if there was still a “forgotten half”—a term coined in the late 1980s to describe the half of young people who weren’t going to college. Back then, the government was spending $10 on college-bound students for every $1 on those who didn’t go to college. That report called for more attention to young people who were not well served by traditional higher education.

When we looked at data from 2011, we saw that only about 28% of 25-year-olds had a four-year degree. Adding in those with two-year degrees and meaningful postsecondary certificates brought the total to less than 50%. This raised an important question: what’s our strategy for the other half of young people who aren’t earning four-year degrees?

Our report also explored trends in the labor market. Economists at the time suggested that the economy would only offer two types of jobs: high-wage, high-skill jobs requiring at least a four-year degree, and low-skill, low-wage jobs. However, others, like Tony Carnevale at Georgetown, argued there would continue to be a significant number of middle-skill jobs, particularly in sectors like IT, healthcare, transportation, and logistics. These jobs require something beyond a high school diploma but not necessarily a four-year degree.

Another influence on my thinking was the time I spent studying European education and training systems, particularly in Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark, where youth apprenticeship programs combine work and learning. In Switzerland, for example, about 70% of young people move into these programs at 15 or 16, which provides them with broad, transferable skills and a pathway to a good career. This approach, integrating education with real-world skills, had a big impact on our thinking in the Pathways report.

The Pathways to Prosperity report resonated widely. We received invitations to speak from 30 states and five countries within six months. This response indicated a need to work with states on building more robust pathways from high school to postsecondary education and into the workforce. Once we started focusing on pathways to work, community colleges naturally became central to the conversation. They sit between high schools and employers, and the best of them are nimble and market-oriented, making them well-suited to workforce development.

Tom Vander Ark: Community colleges are certainly well-positioned. You mentioned early college high schools, which were another piece of the puzzle, and I know your wife worked on that movement at Jobs for the Future (JFF). Early colleges focused on helping students earn college credit in high school, often with a career-oriented approach. How did that influence your work?

Bob Schwartz: Yes, the early college movement was indeed influential. Some early colleges, like Wake Tech in North Carolina, prepared students for specific career paths, such as healthcare. However, there was often a disconnect between these career-focused high schools and postsecondary institutions, particularly community colleges. Our work aimed to bridge these gaps, building on early college and career academy models, but with a focus on employment as the ultimate goal.

We wanted to ensure that students left high school not only prepared for college but also for good careers in high-growth, high-demand fields where they could earn a living wage without necessarily having a four-year degree. The assumption was that if students later decided they needed more education, their employer might help support further learning.

Tom Vander Ark: That leads us to your book, America’s Hidden Economic Engines: How Community Colleges Can Drive Shared Prosperity, co-authored with Rachel Lipson. You and Rachel selected a handful of exemplary community colleges to highlight. What commonalities did you find among them?

Bob Schwartz: We selected five community colleges from across the country, each with strong employer partnerships and a commitment to workforce development. These colleges work closely with major industry sectors in their regions, often collaborating on curriculum design and workforce training. They use real-time labor market data to inform their programs and listen carefully to employer needs.

An interesting example is Pima Community College in Tucson, Arizona. Under the leadership of Lee Lambert, Pima shifted its focus to workforce development, dedicating significant resources to this mission. They now have a hundred staff on the workforce side, 30 of whom are dedicated to building employer relationships. We visited Pima and interviewed leaders, students, and community members, creating a video to showcase their work.

Another common theme among these colleges is the integration of credit and non-credit programs. Traditionally, non-credit programs are funded separately and often serve specific employer needs on a short-term basis. But places like Pima have integrated non-credit workforce programs into their core mission, recognizing that they’re essential to their students’ economic mobility.

Tom Vander Ark: That integration of work-based learning seems crucial, especially as more companies move toward skills-based hiring. How do work-based learning opportunities factor into the success of these community colleges?

Bob Schwartz: Work-based learning is indeed a priority. At Pima, they’ve made a commitment to providing every student with a work-based learning experience, although the logistics of this are still being developed. Other community colleges, like Delaware Tech, have also committed to this approach.

Increasingly, employers are asking for work experience. If students graduate without it, they face challenges in the job market, regardless of whether they have a two-year or four-year degree. Institutions like Pima are working to address this by partnering closely with local employers to provide students with meaningful work experience before they graduate.

Tom Vander Ark: You studied five exemplary colleges, but there are about a thousand community colleges nationwide. What’s the distribution like? How many of them could be considered economic engines?

Bob Schwartz: There are regional differences. In the South, for example, many community colleges have long focused on workforce development, thanks in part to forward-thinking governors like Jim Hunt in North Carolina and Bill Clinton in Arkansas. These leaders built institutions specifically to support economic development.

In other parts of the country, like Massachusetts and Washington State, community colleges have traditionally focused more on providing the first two years of a four-year education. Shifting these institutions toward a workforce development model will require convincing employers and policymakers of their potential.

Tom Vander Ark: You’re working on two projects at the Harvard Project on Workforce. Could you share more about your current focus, especially regarding equity?

Bob Schwartz: In Boston, we’re working to build a college and career readiness program for high school students with two pillars: early college exposure and career exposure through work-based learning and internships. The goal is for every Boston public school student to graduate with meaningful experiences in both college and career settings, enabling them to make informed choices about their futures.

In addition to Boston, we hosted leadership teams from six states last year, inviting them to learn from the community colleges featured in our book. States like California, Colorado, and New Jersey are making strides in aligning their community colleges with workforce needs, driven by strong partnerships with employers.

Tom Vander Ark: Bob, you’ve described a new equity vision: all students experiencing success in whatever comes next, whether that’s college or career. We can rally around that. We’ve been talking with Bob Schwartz, co-author of America’s Hidden Economic Engines: How Community Colleges Can Drive Shared Prosperity, along with Rachel Lipson. Bob, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for joining us.

Bob Schwartz: My pleasure. And thank you, Tom.

Getting Smart: Until next time, keep learning, keep leading, and keep innovating for equity.

Links:

• America’s Hidden Economic Engines: How Community Colleges Can Drive Shared Prosperity
• Review of America’s Hidden Economic Engines 
• Bob Schwartz Bio
• “Gold Standard: The Swiss Vocational Education and Training System”
• Gallup Poll
• Work-based learning GPS report
• Northeastern’s Co-Op Model