Podcast: Jenny Pieratt on Powerful PBL

You’re listening to the Getting Smart podcast, where we unpack what is new and innovative in education. I’m your host Jessica, and today we’re bringing you an episode focused on project-based learning featuring Jenny Peratt. We’ll send it right over to Kelly on our team, who recently got a chance to sit down with

Jenny and dive into project-based learning, best practices, and how to support every learner and every educator. Hi listeners, Jessica here. Before we get started on today’s episode, I think it’s important to note that this interview was recorded prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

We acknowledge that educators, leaders, and students are in an incredibly trying time as they continue to provide and learn outside of the school building. We hope that these interviews contain helpful tips and ideas that can still be used even in this defining time. Well good afternoon.

This is the Getting Smart podcast. And today we are talking with Jenny Peratt. I am Kelly Nichols, Design Learning Manager. And Jenny is the founder of Crafted Curriculum, and she’s also an author of multiple books around project-based learning.

And the two of us are going to chat, PBL, all the ins and outs of what’s best practices to support and implement project-based learning in your school, and just some good best practices and lessons learned in the systemic design and support of project-based learning. So Jenny, I’m really excited to have you here on our podcast. Thank you for having me.

It’s my favorite thing to talk about, PBL. So this is exciting. And this is also exciting Jenny, because you and I kind of go back in the day of PBL work in our coaching time at New Tech Network. Yeah, it is fun.

I mean, things have changed so much in the field in general, but in PBL specifically. So it is fun for those of us that have been doing it a while just to kind of watch the growth and change that’s happened. So I am really excited to talk with you about that, because yeah, we’ve kind of been in this world for a few years.

And you’re really digging into this work and seeing a lot of the trends from a variety of levels as your own business entity and really coaching and supporting and writing about project-based learning in multiple publications. So tell me, why have you dedicated your life to project-based learning? Yeah, you know, I had dedicated myself to PBL before.

I even knew it was a thing. I didn’t even know what PBL was, and it was what I was doing. And I had this student who told me that I should go visit High Tech High. I live in San Diego, and I was like, oh, that sounds cool. And I showed up and was like, oh, this is what I’ve been doing.

I’ve been doing PBL, but didn’t have a name to describe it. And so that was really where my passion for PBL started, was it just felt like a very natural extension of the work I was doing. And having opened up a school at PBL school at High Tech High, we were able to get pretty meta about what it was and how to do it.

And then from there, moving over into the work of New Tech Network and the work that I do now, I’ve just seen that it’s so great for communities in general, right? Like it does this wonderful thing for students in terms of creating engagement for them. Students that may not find any relevance in what they’re learning about all of a sudden see that there’s this incredible real-world connection to the things that they’re learning

about in their classroom. And with that comes a lot of rigor. When PBL is designed well and it’s rooted in standards and there’s best practices of assessment, students are thinking deeply and critically about what they’re doing. And when they start to exhibit their work and invite the community and it becomes this

whole community effort. And I’ve seen it shift single-handedly students’ lives, right? Like just how they experience school. I’ve seen teachers practice shift tremendously. I think PBL is this awesome vehicle for teaching best practices, whether it be about assessment

or just best practices in general of teaching. It’s just this awesome kind of just it’s a vehicle for doing that. So I think I’ve seen teachers grow tremendously. So it’s just it’s all good. And so I just I feel so strongly about it because it feels good to be doing work that

I see changing people’s lives and having an impact. OK, well, I definitely feel the love that you have for PBL and I too really have a great affinity for it in all the ways that you said. And I think what’s really exciting is that there’s this mutuality of students and community members and practitioners who are really empowered through this learning process.

And I don’t think that there is many other pedagogical approaches that provide such a continuous opportunity for growth, development and appreciation as a learner. On that note, like the light bulb moment that happens for teachers when you sit down with them to plan a project and you’re like, well, you’re the designer of your curriculum. They’re like, wait, what?

I’m like, yeah, like that is the most empowering experience for a teacher to all of a sudden see themselves in that way. So yes, just another reason why I love it. Totally. So knowing that this is this really like robust ownership of, you know, practitioner as a teacher, planning a project, engaging real world community partners

and products and also like differentiating and expanding opportunities for learning for students, this must be kind of hard. Oh, it’s so hard. And I don’t think people realize what a big lift it is and what they’re asking of teachers. It’s it’s a huge undertaking to do it.

Well, I guess we shouldn’t say that, right? Because anybody could say they’re doing things and that happens a lot. But to really be committed to it and to really use it as a vehicle for change. It’s a huge undertaking for for a teacher and a staff and a community at large, really. So tell me, let’s, you know, when we think about, you know,

school and structures and you have, you know, the role of a teacher, but I think there’s also this element of like, what are the leadership capacities or leadership moves that like a building principal and leadership team needs to have and also thinking about like a district. So if I’m a district leader right now thinking, yeah, I would really like to

expand project based learning. I’d really like to start project based learning in a particular school or setting. What are those key moves and capacities that leadership needs to be considering to really help support this process? This is a hard one because so my my quick answer is instructional leadership,

like a site principal, a school leader. They have to be an instructional leader and really learning alongside their teachers so that they can support them with with PBL. And this one is so hard for me because, you know, just last week I was with the principal at their school and they had every

intention of being in project coaching with me, but it was like a pipe broke. And then someone fell and then there was a student who was throwing up in the office and it was like, she could not sit down and be a part of our project planning because it was like, she was legitimately putting out fires all around campus. So I know that this one is so hard for district personnel or for,

you know, site principals to be able to do this component. But instructional leadership is so important for PBL because it requires a leader to understand with first and foremost what they’re asking of their teachers. And I think you cannot understand what you’re asking of them until you to learn what it takes.

And so when the messaging is, I want you to do PBL and you also need to stick to this pacing guide and we’re also adopting this ELA curriculum. And we also have bench break testing every six weeks. It’s like without them understanding the nuances of how to design a project, they just can’t possibly understand what a big ask that is, nor can they build

a school system that can, you know, provide the professional development to the school that the teachers within the school needs and give them the one on one support that they’re going to need throughout the process. So I just feel like that instructional leadership piece is like the end all be all for for making PBL stick in the school.

Yeah. And I’m hearing you really emphasize this need for focus, right? So that PBL can’t be like an initiative among many initiatives, but how can, you know, you shift a building towards a project based on a culture of instruction in a way that could incorporate other elements or just eliminate those other elements and really trust PBL is the process for high quality learning.

Yeah, because, you know, the minute that a teacher feels like it’s in addition to whatever, whatever else, right, you can fill in the blank for that. And then it’s however you want to, they’re gone. They’re like, I’m out. I can’t. I’m at capacity. So they really need someone to come in and show them that PBL is the vehicle.

All of these things can fit into here and here’s how to do it, right? But it’s not like a theoretical like, here’s PBL. Now you take what you’re being asked to do and make it work, but they need someone to be alongside them. And that really can be the role of the instructional leader or, you know,

someone else supporting them through that process, but they need to be a part of that as a, as the site leader to understand how it all fits together. So when you work with schools, because you work with schools and you do a lot of facilitation and professional development, tell me, like, is there a,

like a framework that you use or, you know, kind of like an intake process that you have that helps you really know how to collaborate this leadership team and a teacher team in terms of that, developing that understanding for project-based learning when they’re all new to the process?

Yeah, I spend a lot of time on the phone, which is like, it’s so sad, but it sounds archaic to people. They’re like the phone. I’m like, yeah, we talk on the phone. Like I spend a lot of time or if I’m local, I’ll go visit. Because it’s like, I just need to listen. I just need to kind of let them go and just let them process.

So, I mean, I always like have my general questions that I ask that can kind of pull some of that stuff out, but I rarely need to use them because they’re usually coming to me at a point of frustration. Usually, like we thought we had PBL or we thought we could do it, but turns out it’s really hard. And so they kind of tell me their journey. I mean, everyone’s got a PBL journey.

It feels like at this point in the game, like it’s the PBL has been around long enough that people have been dabbling. So it’s rare that someone doesn’t know what PBL is. Right? Yeah. They’ve got baggage, I guess is what I’m saying. So spending time on the phone and just talking through it for me is so important

to figure out, you know, when they tell me like, oh, we just adopted benchmarks advance, am I great? Okay. Now I know that these are the key phrases that I need to be using when we talk about, you know, different components of project design or when they tell me that they’re using this assessment program, I’m like, okay, got it.

So I need to be sure to build that in when we’re talking about rubric design or their report cards or whatever it is. Like teachers, right? You remember when you would get stuck at a PD session, when it had nothing to do with you, it’s so frustrating. Like they have to feel like it’s relevant to their context or they’re out.

Totally. So what are some things that you feel are commonly misunderstood or commonly taken for granted as people begin their PBL journey? That people can just figure it out. Like I cannot tell you how many times I run into that. They’re like, yeah, we were told to do PBL. And I was like, okay, so did you get like support or training?

And they’re like, no. Or they think that they can find examples on the internet and that’s sufficient. Like, oh, well, I found this great project and then I ran it. So I’m doing PBL. And then there’s always just the misunderstanding of what PBL is. So I always go in, you know, to starting our relationship with the school and we focus on calibration because that piece of just

even understanding what high quality project based learning looks like is I just don’t ever assume anymore. Like it takes time and grounding and to be sure because, you know, when you have a staff of like 40 teachers, maybe half of them were trained, but now you’ve got all these new hires and they’re coming just again, like with different baggage and with different

experiences. And it’s like you have to get grounded and calibrated because that’s a really big assumption that everyone understands what it is. And it’s therefore striving for the same goal. Yeah. So you talked about like the relevance of professional development. How does like high quality professional development for project based

learning school communities and district communities look different from more traditional PD? Like what are those like essential elements or experiences or structures that have to be in place for it to be good for a PBL setting? You know, in my experience, it has to be ongoing.

And this is, you know, having, you know, come from different organizations and having different experiences where I was the person that came in and delivered the two day training and was out. I knew it wasn’t sticking. And so for me in my work now, I know that it needs to be more of an ongoing

relationship, a partnership. So to me, high quality professional development is about not throwing everything at the teachers at once. It’s giving them a little asking them to go practice, give a little bit more, ask them to go practice, like let them try it out.

And so then those need to knows kind of organically come about for them and then have them run it, you know, and then do a looking at student work and really reflect and refine and make that project better before you go on to the second one. So it’s taking it really slow.

And sometimes that arc of support, you know, sometimes a school of fast track and say, we want to do that in six months. Others will say a year. Others will say like maybe two years. And I think that’s really important for the leadership to be in touch

with where their teachers are and what they’re willing to commit to. So I just, I just think it needs to, there needs to be touch points over time that continues to build their practice as they can kind of handle it. And what do you think are the like mindsets and kind of not necessarily like an incentive, but like what are the

the common beliefs and mindsets that you think teams need to have to be able to really engage in this type of professional development, ongoing and continuous and really be that learner oriented self? What are some some key identifiers and the way they need to think of what they need to believe to be successful at this type of professional

learning experience? Well, and I got to be honest, it’s rare that I’ll go into a team where everybody’s on board these days. And I think that’s a really important piece to name with this kind of wave of PBL adopters.

So, you know, most of the time I’m working with, I’ve got 75% that are on board and 25% that are really reluctant. So I try to just focus on that 75% because I believe strongly that if they’re already interested, like everybody will tell you yes and they’re like, oh, yeah, PBL sounds great.

Yes, I agree. It creates wonderful human beings. The students are thinking critically, they’re engaged. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then when it comes time to actually plan it and make it work for them in

their classroom, that’s where you’ll lose that 25% in my experience. So I just focus on the 75 because I think that if that group and I can show the other 25% how it can work for them, then I’ll get them on board eventually. And honestly, like 99.9% of the time that’s how it works out.

Because I have those touch points with them, I might not win them over right away, but over time, once they see their colleagues are doing it, then they’re like, oh, it can work for my students. So I think, you know, having a growth mindset is obviously really important, but even if the entire group doesn’t have it out the gate, knowing that over

time they can get there once they, sometimes they just have to see it to believe it. Hey listeners, it’s your host, Jessica. I wanted to just take a quick break to share an important resource with you. Recently, our team launched the Getting Through microsite to support educators, leaders and families on the path forward during this unprecedented and uncertain

time. There’s something there for everyone, whether you’re just getting started with your transition to distance learning or you’ve had plans in place for a while and now have the opportunity to share your work and guidance with others. We hope this gives you a place for your voice and an opportunity to learn.

We know we will get through this together. Check it out at GettingSmart.com slash Getting Through. Okay, now back to the show. And so you mentioned this element of like my students and so what are those like, perceived barriers or obstacles around our, and when I say our, I mean, like

teachers’ mindsets around kids and their beliefs and kids’ ability. And how do you, how do you hear for those? And then how do you support and kind of coach teams through those perceived obstacles or barriers? Yeah, that one’s always hard for me to hear.

I hear it so much now that I’ve kind of, I expect it, but I, every time I walk on those school will hear my kids aren’t ready for this, which is always hard for me because I think every child deserves an engaging and rigorous learning experience. So I’ve had to kind of shift the way I enter into those conversations, but teachers who say that, because what they’re really saying is my students are below

grade level and I don’t know how to catch them up in this framework. So for those teachers, I have to show them the importance of benchmarking a project, how scaffolding fits in and how the best practices of formative assessment are part of the PBL framework. So I’ve kind of just had to let it go when they initially say it, whereas it

used to like bring tears to my eyes. Now I’m like, okay, I just need to reframe the way this work is going to help them see that their kids can do it because, and then again, if that’s say a fifth grade teacher at a school saying that, and then I’m working with the same kindergarten team at their school, say, well, kindergarten just ran a project.

So then it’s kind of like, oh, if, you know, if six year olds can do this, I think your 10 year olds can, right? Like, yeah. So that helps too when the whole staff is on board and going through the process together. Yeah.

So when we think about like PBL implementation, do you think there is a best way? Is it, is it, I know a lot of times in education policy, we do one of two things. We like overhaul everything and like, we’re all going to do this. Or we like go like in small increments and we’re going to pilot it here and then we’re going to, you know, see how it goes.

Is there a method that you think is a best approach that you’ve seen in your practice and in the schools and districts that you’ve worked with in terms of how to start and how, how much and how many, like, you know, over a span of a school or over a span of like a year? Yeah, I think, and I’m kind of, as you were saying that I was picturing my mind,

the principles that I’ve worked with, who, where it has stuck. And I think those principles, what they’ve been able to do is be extremely strategic about the year. So not just like what’s in front of them, you know, in the next month or two, but really what the whole year is going to look like.

So these are the principles who reach out to me in May to plan what the support is going to look like starting August to the following May. Right. So it really is about a whole arc of learning over the course of the year. So it’s looking at, okay, we only have, you know, five meetings for the whole

school year. We have two PD days and we’ve got a couple of PLCs. How do we use all of those things that we have because we can’t change them? The district has already set the calendar. How do we best leverage those to make this PV all thing work for our teachers

rather than, you know, coming in and it’s like, well, we only have one hour staff meeting on a Wednesday and it’s mid-year. And by then I’m like, oh man, okay, we can do our best, but it’s, it’s just on as ideal as the leader who’s able to kind of think about the strategy over the course of an entire year and how all the initiatives, all of their PD time is going

to really work in service of making PBL kind of be successful for them in that year. Yeah. So yeah, that’s really important to think about in terms of the timing because I think a lot of times too, we expect things to just happen really quickly and we want to see instant results.

And so how does time operate non-traditionally in project-based learning? What’s the kind of investment of time and patience and foresight of time that you think school communities implementing PBL need to be aware of? In terms of like professional development. Yes, professional development and like that learning curve and, you know, in

terms of student outcomes. So like how, how should they perceive time and outcomes in a PBL community that might be different from how we perceive time and outcomes in a traditionalized setting? Okay.

And I think that’s, there’s like two layers that like the teachers and then the students. So I think for the teachers, my favorite mechanism that really seems to work beautifully with PBL support are collaboration wheels. So principals again, are able to plan it out a year, you know, ahead where the

students are all released to go to their specials or their pullouts at the exact same time for a whole grade level. So then it’s built in time during the school day for it’s usually like two hours where these teachers are able to work together. I think it’s at once a month.

Might be maybe even more than that. So I think if, if schools are able to build that in, that’s an incredible support structure for project planning. And, you know, the next one I’ll say with the caveat of night, this is really hard to do, but full release days are also ideal.

So if sometimes principals can get really creative and pull funding from different places to pay for teachers to come in a day early in the summer or pay for them to stay late, you know, at the end of the school year for a day. And I think just having seven hours is such a wonderful opportunity for learning rather than this like fly by one hour every Wednesday here and there

after, you know, a staff meeting. So I think that’s also a really important way to think about time is the length of time to sit and really dive in to, to PBL. Um, and then I think for the students, this is a question that really trips teachers up a lot.

So I’m glad you asked this. Um, they’ll ask, I don’t have time for this during my day. When do I make time in my schedule? And this is especially true for elementary because they’re so focused on the foundational skills, which they should be.

Kids still need to learn how to read and write and do, you know, basic math. So, yes, um, they have a really big misunderstanding that they’re not supposed to do that because they’re supposed to do PBL. So I actually, it’s a, um, one of the last chapters of my book, I, I include a lot of different daily schedules so that elementary teachers can see that all

of the learning that they’re doing, you know, traditionally that they don’t want to let go of can still happen in PBL. You know, maybe it’s project planning at the, or project work time at the end of the day, or, um, you know, reading and writing workshop in the morning and, and project time in the afternoon and just kind of rethinking the way that

their daily schedule can look. And also thinking about, you know, if you want to dedicate your ELA minutes from your day to the project, because kids are learning, informational, reading, or writing, you can do that. So it’s also rethinking your minutes and how you use those traditionally to

make them work for the project that students are working on. Okay. So that’s really great. So you talk about giving some examples in your book. You want to tell me about the books that you’ve written and kind of like, what’s

the impetus of, of these resources and what you hope for them to be in terms of a useful resource in the field? Yes. This is my third baby, my books. Um, keep it real with PBL.

So the, the name came from my friend who’s not in education at all. She’s like, man, you always talk about your work. You’re so passionate about it. She’s like, but your voice is very different when you talk to me about it than when I read your, your articles that you write.

And I was like, I kind of stung it first. I was like, Oh, okay. She was like, why don’t you just keep it real? Like that. She’s like, you like just be you.

And so that kind of became the beginning of me rethinking my voice and what I can bring to the field because I’m not the first person to offer PD and PBL. Lord, Lord knows I’ve got plenty of competitors, but I think what, what my angle is I spent so much time in the trenches with teachers in classrooms and planning projects with them that I do think I bring a very real flavor to the

work of saying, here’s what’s really hard. And here’s the disconnect between the people who are making the decisions about teachers implementing and teachers who are doing the lifting in their classrooms. And so the book is really designed. I have like these real talk sound bites all throughout the book where it’s,

you can kind of hear my sass come through about, like, you know, for example, people always say PBLs and I don’t know where that came from. And so I call out right away, like PBLs isn’t a thing. Project based learning is a way of learning. It’s a pedagogy, right?

Like it’s a whole way of being. Um, so, so the book is just a step by step guide to walk teachers through, um, how to design a project in a very realistic setting, dealing with standards, dealing with assessments. Um, and it’s, it’s just trying to call out that, that being really theoretical

about PBL isn’t helpful for teachers, in my opinion. So, um, the two books are broken up, one by elementary, one by secondary, because every teacher will tell you they hate hearing examples that don’t apply to them. So I heard that loud and clear.

So we tease it out into two books and there’s really practical examples and resources in there for teachers. Um, and in a way that I, that I feel is, is pretty helpful for them, whether I’m there working with them or whether they’re on their own and never get a chance to work with me.

So this is really great about the practicality of your books, right? Is that this is for a teacher who might not be like in that perfect setting for project based learning, right? And so I think we, we see a lot of examples and you, you know, brought up high tech high and you know, there’s all these, you know, um, different waves of

charter schools and private schools and independent schools and, you know, opportunistic schools that have these amazing settings and amazing, you know, context and might not have to, you know, I guess conform or be compliant to many of the different systems that exist. Um, and your book is like, no matter where you are, what you’re doing, like,

here’s the way, here’s a roadmap for you to find success and, you know, implement project based learning in your practice. Yeah. Because I felt like that’s where the gap was in our field, right? Like, and I’ve heard Larry Rosenstock, the founder of high tech, high talk

about this many times, like the conditions at high tech, high, they, they rarely can all exist together anywhere. Like it’s very rare. And even when I was at New Tech, you know, a lot of those schools have really wonderful just autonomy to, to create things, not all of them,

but some of them did. But I think now the schools that are looking to adopt are, are much more of your traditional comprehensive, you know, middle school. And, and that looks very different from, you know, the setting at high tech, high where there’s only 50 students that you’re responsible for and you’re

functioning in a team and you have a common planning time every day and you meet every morning for professional development and you have full release days, like no one has all that. So the more that I continue to do my work and the more I kind of got away from that and saw the reality that people were really facing, I was like, man,

there, there aren’t a lot of resources out there for those people. And there’s enough of them now that they really needed it. And so I think that also feels really good to know that those people are finally, you know, kind of getting the help that I think they’ve been asking for. And I think it really exemplifies your belief that PBL is for everyone, right?

That you don’t have to have a specialized context. You don’t have to have a specialized type of student that all kids can be successful in project-based learning and all teachers and all schools, structures can have success in project-based learning. 100 percent.

I think every child deserves to be engaged in their learning. And there’s a lot of ways to do that. Like PBL isn’t the only way to do it. I just am a little biased and it happens to be the way I like to go about it. But I think every child deserves to be engaged and to have a really rigorous

learning experience and I see it every day how PBL can offer that to kids. So when you think about like the common trends around like a new column, like pains and gains. And so talk to me about what are some common pains that you not only just try to overcome explicitly in your book, but also like in your facilitation

and in your development when working with teams. I think a big one that I really see is that teachers just don’t get enough support for project design because it does take so much time and it’s not something you can just learn a couple of days and then move on. You’ve got it.

It does take that ongoing growth and support. So I hear teachers complain a lot. I mean, although always complain about time, we all always will. There’s never enough time in the day. But you know, just giving teachers time and plopping them in a room and being

like, all right, there’s your time. Go for it. It’s not enough. They really need someone to sit with them and kind of help them through the process. I think that the game there, the opportunity for growth is really about

providing ongoing support rather than just time. Yeah. Any other examples? Yeah. I mean, we’ve talked about this one a little bit, just the notion of when only one person at the grade level is interested, right? Like my male bricks or my lightning rods.

And I think because a lot of people are experiencing that, if you’re in a grade level where you’re the only one who wants to do this work and other people don’t, I think that if the instructional leader can continue to focus on the bright spots and to really elevate that work that’s happening, that other teachers will come along. Like I’ve been doing this long enough that I’ve seen it and sometimes it takes

like two, three years, but they’ll get there. So I think just elevating that work and celebrating it and sharing it in a way that doesn’t fill into many into the rest of the staff, but it just just truly as a celebration, I think is a really another wonderful opportunity to to allow PBL to kind of surface at a school.

Yeah. So I think, again, like you have these great examples, not only just in terms of our conversation, but also in your books. I would love, let’s, you know, we have multiple types of listeners to our podcast across the organization, schools, levels. What are, if I’m someone who’s interested in project based learning, whether

as a facilitator of it in a classroom setting or as a researcher and want to kind of learn more, you know, that’s out there or as a district leader who’s, you know, interested in bringing it into my district. What do you think are the first three first steps that somebody needs to take to begin their journey into PBL in a substantial way?

Assuming that they’re like the loan soldier at their school or is this assuming that it’s like a whole staff that’s ready to do the work? Yeah. Maybe, I mean, maybe, well, I would love for you to differentiate there. Right. So let’s say I’m a loan ranger. What are those first three things that I should do?

And we’re part of a collective and what should our group be able to do in those first three steps? So if you’re the solo person at your site that wants to pull this off, my unicorn friends, I think one of the greatest sources of support is Twitter. And I know that makes some teachers really uncomfortable because maybe they’re

not familiar with Twitter, but the Twitter community is so incredibly supportive of PBL. And my favorite chat and hashtag to follow is PBL chat. It’s just really, they’re all practitioners. So everyone is doing the work and everyone is experiencing the same pains and gains.

So I think that right there is just a wonderful welcoming community to just kind of get familiar with and see what other people are doing and hear their struggles and also see their celebration. So that would be the first thing I would actually tell someone is to get a Twitter account and to go find the PBL chat people because they’re lovely.

I think the other one is to, you know, I think BIE does a really nice job of providing a lot of free projects that you can look. New Tech has some wonderful rubrics that I love and we can link all these two for people. But I think looking at really high quality examples of assessment tools and projects, I think is really helpful for teachers to wrap their mind around

what it is that they’re, you know, committing to and what they want to do. And I think that also kind of helps flush out some of that misunderstanding around what PBL is. I think if it’s an entire staff who’s looking to make the jump together, I would say to think about the year and how the whole year can really be built

around making this work happen in a way where teachers feel really supportive and everyone’s brought on board. So, you know, looking at your PD time and looking about whatever initiatives the district is asking you to implement that year, really thinking about it holistically and how everything that the staff is going to do is going to be in

service of this one thing and keeping everybody kind of on that train together. I think is a really critical first step to calendar and map that out. Awesome. Well, Jenny, I really appreciate you keeping it real in this talk about PBL. I am so grateful for your influence in the field in terms of your resources that you are publishing as well as the facilitation and support that you’re doing

to partners and people. And you’re national, right? You’re not just local or do you work anywhere that somebody wants to hire you? Yeah, no, I travel. It has been fun to do local work just because it’s my community.

So that’s been really fun. But I do. I travel wherever the work is. If the people want to do it, we’ll figure out how to make it work. Awesome. Well, thank you for your expertise today. Thank you for your energy.

And I look forward to all you continue to do for PBL. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. A big thanks to Jenny for taking time to join the podcast this week. We appreciate her commitment to project based learning for every learner.

For more on PBL and all things innovations and learning, be sure to check out our blog at getting smart dot com. And before you go, don’t forget to hit subscribe and leave us a rating. That’s it for today, listeners. For the Getting Smart podcast, this is Jessica signing off.