What to Do When a Student Says “I’m Not Going to College” | Getting Smart Town Hall

In this Getting Smart Town Hall, Shawnee Caruthers asks what families and educators can do in the moment a young person says, “I’m not going to college.” She is joined by Whitney Mires, a counselor at Silver Creek High School in St. Vrain Valley Schools, two St. Vrain students, and members of the Getting Smart community. Together they look at the questions parents are asking, Colorado’s push to expand career pathways, and one real next step a family can take before graduation.

Transcript

Introduction

Shawnee Caruthers: I’m Shawnee Caruthers, and today I will be your moderator. This is another Getting Smart Town Hall, and our title is a sentence that a lot of families will hear sooner or later. They may not hear it at their own kitchen table, but they may hear it at the kitchen table of their niece or nephew or cousin. And that sentence is, “I am not going to college. Now what?”

Somewhere tonight, a parent or a cousin or an aunt is hearing that sentence for the very first time, and today is for that parent. That’s what this town hall is for, and for the educators who will guide families through that moment. You’ll see a little warm-up on the screen, and we would love for you to respond in the chat.

When a young person says, “I’m not going to college,” what is the first thing that you feel? Let’s take just a second. I’m sorry, I can’t see all the chat sometimes because of my screen, but Marissa and Mason will be on top of it. Go ahead and drop in: when a young person says, “I am not going to college,” what is the first thing that you feel?

And be honest. We’re all friends here. Let’s give you just a couple of seconds to do that, and then I’ll continue.

Thank you, Judy. Judy says she feels unprepared to help, and some get curious, just trying to figure out what it is that they want to do. Some feel thrilled and say, “Hey, tell me more.” They lean all the way in, and some feel curious and inspired. It truly just depends on the young person. So please keep dropping the comments in the chat.

As you’re dropping those feelings, I want you to hold onto them, because they’re exactly what the parent in the story we’ll be referencing during this town hall is feeling too. So thank you for dropping your feelings, and please keep going.

Meet Jordan

Shawnee Caruthers: So, “Mom, I’m not going to college.” Imagine it’s a Thursday in October, and a senior named Jordan, who’s 17, looks up from dinner one day and says, “Mom, I’m not going to college.” The mom is thinking, “Okay, graduation is about seven months away,” and that’s the clock the family is now working on. That’s the clock we’re going to focus on today.

Jordan is a composite of lots of students that you see all the time within your high school or the organizations in which you work. But I bet you know him, or you know some form of Jordan. Jordan is a 17-year-old kid who gets Bs and Cs. He shows up, he stays out of trouble, he kind of flies under the radar, but nothing really lights him up at school.

He’s just not that engaged. So he didn’t take advantage of the career and technical education opportunities. He didn’t take advantage of the internships or the apprenticeships. That just wasn’t his thing. But out of school, Jordan lived life. He worked 20 hours a week, and he had just made shift lead, so he got a promotion that he was super proud of. He rebuilt a dirt bike from YouTube videos. He’s the friend that everyone calls when something breaks. But again, he passed on those dual credit and other opportunities, and nobody pushed, and he didn’t think it was for him.

So I’m going to pause and ask you a question, and again, feel free to come off mute and share. I also might just call on somebody, but you can also put it in the chat. Who do you know that looks like Jordan? Think about all of the young people that you interact with. Who is the Jordan for you? What strengths do you see in him that he may not be able to see in himself? Who would like to share about a young person that they know? You don’t have to use names or anything like that, but maybe a situation or a scenario that you’ve encountered.

Josh Reppun: My wife’s nephew’s son is graduating from high school in Southern California, and it has been exactly the scenario that you describe. Everybody in the extended families on both sides is watching and waiting to see what will happen.

The point I would want to make, Shawnee, is that there are such strong opinions on the part of adults, but I’m not sure that all of these adults are asking the really open-ended, empathetic questions that would get at why he doesn’t seem to have a clear pathway ahead, whether it’s college or career or whatever. It’s about the questions that the adults can ask: supportive, empathetic questions, not closed questions.

Shawnee Caruthers: Thank you, Josh. I appreciate you sharing, and for really surfacing the importance of asking open-ended versus closed-ended questions, and leading with empathy instead of a stern hand. Definitely appreciate that. And it’s hard as a parent, especially when you’re fearful. We all want our young person, our kid, to be successful, and then when they come and they redefine what that success looks like, it can be a challenge. So just thinking about Jordan’s mom, who was sitting across the table from him: Jordan’s mom was only thinking college. College is the safe path. College is the path that I know, and it’s what she’s essentially been preaching to Jordan, and so have others, since kindergarten. But she doesn’t know what else is real. And so the questions that Josh just surfaced, about being curious and having open-ended possibilities, that definitely is the way to go.

But then you also have to balance that with, “Well, I don’t know what they’re going to do. How much is it going to cost? Where are they going to get training? Where are they going to live? How long…” All of these questions that you never had to consider before come flooding back to you. And she’s afraid that he’ll fail, and that’s honest. As parents, we sometimes have that fear for our young people, and she doesn’t want him to be labeled as missing college, and she’s thinking about what that shame might look like for her and Jordan. She wants him to be successful, but she wants him to have a real plan, and she needs answers now.

So just like the young person you were referencing, Josh, your young person needs answers now. They don’t need judgment. They need answers now. So again, thank you, Josh. I just want you to know that she is not alone. Jordan’s mom is not an anomaly, just one parent in the United States or beyond who’s having these kinds of feelings. These feelings are happening with parents all across the country.

What Parents Want to Know About Pathways After High School

Shawnee Caruthers: Britebound did an amazing job of asking parents these questions. They surfaced a bunch, and one was around just, “Is it worth it?” I think you all can see the screen pretty well. Is it worth it? For example, does this trade school certification, or straight-to-work move, actually put more money in my kid’s pocket over the next whatever period of time? Or are there scholarships or financial aid for students who want to attend trade school or community college? These are just a sampling, but parents need to know the cost of whatever we’re about to invest in, whatever this new venture is. Is it worth it?

This was from their parent research. They also want to know what’s out there. Again, Jordan, like many kids, chose not to take advantage, and for whatever reason. There are so many reasons why young people show up the way they do in high school. There could have been a death, there could have been so many things that altered their high school experience, or they simply could have chosen not to, like Jordan, because they had other interests. So parents want to know what’s actually out there. They want to know what the most in-demand careers are. They want to know where they can find information about different pathways. They want to know if trade schools routinely allow students to get paid as they learn their craft. This is new territory, and so it is our responsibility as educators to help the parents, to not assume, to not make them feel bad, but to learn alongside them so that they can walk alongside their young person on that crystal stair.

They also want to know how we help them see what fits best. Again, sometimes we think we follow a straight line: we graduate from high school, we go to college, we get a job, and this happens, and this happens. But life, as you all know, truly ebbs and flows. We have to help our young people see what fits best for them.

And do students take a gap year? Do students who take a gap year have a harder time re-entering school? Or how can that parent, in this case Jordan’s mom, help her child explore what careers actually interest them rather than picking a career based on how much they can earn? That is what a lot of young people are doing, especially in this day and age. In these economic times, they’re really concerned about the state of the economy, and, like their parents, they want to know, “Will I be able to survive?” That’s a real thought.

Then the last slide before I ask you a question is: Will this work for my kid? Whatever the plan is, whether it’s community college, whether it’s getting a credential, whatever that looks like, they still want to know if this plan will work for their kid. Because ultimately, we as parents, and Jordan’s mom, want our child to be successful. So as you looked at these slides, as we were trying to figure out what will work, how do we help them see what fits, what’s actually out there, and is it worth it: what’s missing? Is there anything missing in those categories that you would add that you did not see up there, that you feel is really worth sourcing, or some bigger essential question that we need to also consider? Feel free to drop it in the chat, and you can also come off mute to share.

Mason Pashia: Yeah, I’ll just say I think there’s some room in these questions for some of the stuff that we take for granted from college, and it doesn’t necessarily come up: the ideas of making lifelong friends, of making really deep social capital connections. I think there’s something there that’s worth noodling on, parallel to this conversation we’re having today, which is about really individual discovery. But there’s also this collective discovery that I think is worth holding as we move forward.

Service Learning and Why the Doors Did Not Close

Shawnee Caruthers: Thank you. I know that we’ve had conversations about whose job it really is to help that young person see what fits. Is it the counselor? Is it the parents, the teachers, employers? Is it the young person’s responsibility? We’ll answer some of those questions in just a moment when we talk with Whitney and Owen and Asher, the two young people that we have with us from St. Vrain. But continue to think about whose job it is, and what is the right approach in order to engage. And Kristy, I see that you put something on there around service learning opportunities. Would you like to speak to that for just a moment?

Kristy: Yeah, I’ll do a bit. I’ve got a cold, so apologies. My story is about my best friend’s son, who faced this. In the absence of having confidence and, I think, inspiration and drive, he ended up working for Habitat for Humanity for a year until he found his path. And his path actually led to an apprenticeship in carpentry. So I just think service learning, offered in numerous different ways, might be a path that students might choose if they learned about what might be available.

Shawnee Caruthers: Thank you. That is a really good tension to hold as well. There are so many things that young people can learn from volunteering, service learning, mission trips, things of that nature, because it is truly about knowing yourself, knowing where you belong, knowing how you matter, and knowing how you can give back to the world and what impact you want to make, and just generally what you’re curious about. So thank you, Kristy. I think that’s an amazing idea to help them figure that out.

And the good news for Jordan and Jordan’s mom, and for the young person that you’re holding close to your heart as we’re having this conversation, is that the doors didn’t close. They just moved. Where Jordan didn’t take part in an apprenticeship program, didn’t take advantage of dual credit opportunities or couldn’t, or didn’t participate in career and technical education and things of that nature, that’s okay, because those things still exist. Jordan can still join a registered apprenticeship program and earn a paycheck while he learns a trade. He can go to a community college and get college credit and earn a certificate or an associate degree. He can do a short-term industry training program. He can do lots of different options. So the doors didn’t close. They just moved, and that’s okay.

How Counselors Respond: Pathways, Apprenticeships and the Big Three in Colorado

Shawnee Caruthers: Someone who truly understands this work is Whitney Mires, from St. Vrain, and I’m going to bring Whitney into the conversation because she talks to parents all the time. She’s at Silver Creek High School, and she’s joining us with two students, Owen and Asher. We’ll get to you in just a moment, and we’ll do a more formal introduction to you, Whitney, as well. But I did want to start with two of the parent questions that were surfaced on one of the slides as we were going through it. One of them was: Why don’t high school counseling centers provide increased exposure to pathways that involve vocations, trades, and community college early on? I feel like the emphasis is always on the four-year degree. How would you answer that parent if a parent came to you and said that?

Whitney Mires: I’d say that’s a very legitimate concern, and it’s one that we’re trying to address. I think society is trying to address it as well, and we’re ever-evolving with the opportunities that we present to the students. Traditionally, like you were saying, our crystal stair was, “We’re going to go to college. Everybody can go to college. It’s for everyone.” Yes, and there are equally respectable other opportunities. As we have beefed up our career and technical education programming and looked at employment trends around the state and around the country and around the world, we’re trying to evolve as a school district and as a school to open more pathways for students, and to use those terms like pathways and opportunities. We’re also recognizing that the traditional school setting of seven hours in a seat, sitting and getting, is not for everyone. There are multiple ways of learning and multiple paths after high school.

Shawnee Caruthers: Yes. I loved that you surfaced norming around some of that vocabulary, because that truly is where it starts. If young people and students are hearing all the time, “College, college, college,” but we’re not saying the word pathways and we’re not saying the word apprenticeships and things of that nature, it’s very easy for them to think that there’s truly only one option, which is college. Before you jump into your presentation, I’ll just ask you one more question, Whitney. One of the other questions on the slide said, “My daughter’s undecided about what she wants to pursue. How do I show her what’s out there and not just tell her?” What would you say to that parent?

Whitney Mires: Well, again, I think this came up in the chat as well. Parents should lead with curiosity, because students are naturally curious, right? Maybe bring in some of their knowledge about them, but not impose it, and not use their past against them. I mean, when Asher… Asher, by the way, is my son. So when we talk, I’m talking now as a counselor and a parent. When he was younger, he maybe wanted to be a firefighter because he dressed up as one for Halloween. But I didn’t impose that pathway on you.

So I think showing them without telling them is important, to expose them to multiple things. We try to get to know other people in our circle who have various careers, and, you know, take your child to work day. We never got to take advantage of that too much. I take advantage of it every day now. But just things like that, exposing them at multiple levels and leading from a perspective of curiosity rather than expectation.

Shawnee Caruthers: Amazing. Thank you. Again, Whitney and Owen and Asher are from St. Vrain in Colorado. St. Vrain is a school district that provides its young people with lots of pathway options to explore and engage in what might interest them. So Whitney, I’ll let you and Owen and Asher take it away from here.

Whitney Mires: Cool, thanks. As Shawnee said, I’m Whitney. I’m a 13th-year counselor here at Silver Creek in Longmont, Colorado. It’s part of a large suburban district in northern Denver. We have nine comprehensive high schools and one career technical education center and an innovation center, which have different pathways. They have different functions. We serve 33,000 students, and I have two of them here right now. Asher, my son, is a senior, and Owen is a junior. Both are thinking they’re college bound, but are open to things from various perspectives. Another student I was hoping to bring on would have been great, just like Jordan. Of course, that student is a senior and hard to wrangle these days. These guys are on their lunch and free block breaks. I’m speaking more in generalities now, not representing my employer. I’m on my lunch break too, so I’m just going to speak about what we do in Colorado.

They’re really recognizing this need for postsecondary and workforce readiness out of our Department of Education, and so they’ve identified what they call the big three. It’s state legislation, actually. Instead of basing school accountability and postsecondary readiness on SAT scores, which is the traditional metric, they’re now using what they’re calling the big three. Starting with the class of 2029, they are hoping that 100% of graduates will engage in at least one of these big three.

The college credit one is the first and the most known, of course. That’s traditionally what our school, which offers over 27 and growing AP classes, is known for. That includes dual enrollment, those kinds of classes, AP and IB. We have another school that’s an IB school. The next one is the industry-recognized credentials. Those are things that students can get through their career center or through our innovation center. We have partnerships with places like Amazon and Cisco. They can get certifications in all kinds of different things. And then the career center, of course, has welding and automotive and all those industry certifications. And that third piece speaks to the apprenticeships and workplace-based learning, where they can actually work with an employer and do something related to their postsecondary goals, and maybe even earn some credit. So that’s the big three that we’re looking at here in Colorado and what we’re trying to build our pathways around.

As the next slide shows, this is something that’s not as new. This is the Individual Career and Academic Plan, which is ICAP, and it came out of our state legislation in about 2014. But we’re always honing it to make it better. You can see on the left side what it is. It’s a multi-year process. Ideally it starts in kindergarten, where you’re having these conversations, and then beefing them up as students get older. In middle school we’re planning career days for our district. And then by high school the students engage in their ICAPs more intentionally. Every year it’s a survey they take, and they’re like, “What’s this mean?” But ideally, we take that information and we look at our students’ data, we look for trends, and we can even pull it up individually and have individual conversations with those students about their postsecondary plans.

So that’s a little bit about what we do as far as offering multiple pathways, but the ICAP is kind of the holder of those things. Because I’ve talked a lot, I’m going to let these guys speak about some of the questions that I shared with them ahead of time. Let them think.

Students Share Their Plans and What They Wish Parents Understood

Shawnee Caruthers: So Owen, Asher, we would love to hear about your journey and what your postsecondary plans are, if you know them. If not, at least what you’re curious about.

Whitney Mires: You can start, Asher.

Asher: I’m currently thinking about college. I’ve been doing some applications. But I think there’s also the option of not going to college, because I do a lot of creative work for my school. I do a lot of creative media stuff, and I’ve seen that there are options to that that are not college, and I could just continue to grow a business, freelance, and build myself up from that without college. So that’s also an option.

Owen: Both my parents went to college, so growing up I didn’t really know what a trade school was until probably middle school. So obviously I think a trade school is in the picture, but right now the path is going to be college for me. I have a few ideas of what I want to do. Last year I was looking at airline and being a commercial pilot, and I took a class at the IC. It wasn’t really for me, and after some thought about the career, I don’t really want to be away from home that much. But yeah, I’ve had some exposure to different types of careers, and I’m still undecided. College is probably what my plan is at the moment.

Shawnee Caruthers: Thank you both for sharing. And I’m curious how you both… Owen, how did you decide that college is the path for you? How did you make that decision? And Asher, what will help you decide which route you take?

Owen: I think I still have some time, so I’m still looking at stuff. Obviously, business is a very common major, but I’m looking at business and engineering and stuff like that. I have a class next year at the innovation center that’s an entrepreneurial… You know the word. Hard to say. I don’t know what to say. And so we’ll see how I like that. I have a lot of time to think about it, but I just think college is more options. And both my parents went to college, and I think experience-wise it’s important to go and make those connections, like you said earlier, with different people, and find your people. So apart from all the future stuff, that’s another reason.

And we have a family friend who I help out sometimes who’s a plumber, and I’ve seen what he does on a day-to-day basis. While it’s a good career, it’s very protected, job security-wise… I just don’t think it’s the path for me. But it’s definitely an option.

Shawnee Caruthers: Okay. Thank you.

Asher: For me, deciding between college or just continuing to do what I’ve been doing comes down to, is it worth it? Will I end up paying more for college than I will be making back? How will I be able to pay for it? Or, if I don’t go to college, will I be able to make enough to support myself and not stay stuck where I am?

Whitney Mires: Living in our basement.

Asher: So it just comes down to, is it worth it? How much money will I get if I do go to college? How much will I be paying for college? So it comes down to the scholarships and things like that, from an economic standpoint.

Shawnee Caruthers: Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate your vulnerability, your transparency. As you’re navigating these decisions, and Asher, I know you’re sitting next to your mom, who’s a counselor, so that may create a different layer of complexity there. What do you both wish your parents, or those who are in your decision-making circle, understood that you don’t feel like they truly get as it relates to the decisions you’re making?

Asher: I just wish they knew that there were other options than college, because both my parents went to college, and my dad works in the college realm, and my mom does too. So their whole life kind of revolves around college, and I just wish they knew that there are other options for me than college. I could do my own business, could freelance, and do things outside of college, and learn things self-taught. And internship opportunities and things.

Whitney Mires: They’d still be proud of you.

Shawnee Caruthers: Yeah. What about you, Owen?

Owen: I’m not really as sure about this one. My parents have always been very focused on, “It’s your choice. We’re not going to influence you. We’re going to give you ideas, but we’re not going to make that decision for you.” Obviously it’s hard, and it’s scary to think about the future, which I think they definitely understand because they’ve been through it as well. Something I wish they would understand… I think they’re pretty understanding people. I guess one thing is that my mom’s a teacher, and she wants me to be a teacher, because she thinks I would be good at it, but I don’t think it’s for me. So I’d like them to understand that I’m not the same person as them, which I know they do, but just a little bit more. That’s the only thing.

Shawnee Caruthers: No, that’s totally understandable, and this question is maybe connected. It sounds like you both have really great support systems who are allowing you to be open and to see what’s out there. But as you’re talking to your trusted circle, what is something that your parents or siblings or whoever you’re talking to can say that will make you absolutely shut down when you’re talking to them about this, and something that will absolutely make you want to open up?

Asher: Hard question.

Shawnee Caruthers: It’s okay. You can take just a moment to think.

Owen: There haven’t been many scenarios where I’ve felt that down, or where they’ve said something that makes me think, “Oh, I really don’t like thinking about that.” This year I’ve figured it out a little bit more, but last year I was in what you could call a sophomore year slump. I was so unmotivated with school. Grades were slipping. I hated the idea of school. And my parents, because they want what’s best for me, and I obviously understand that now, would always get after me about school. But I would be so unmotivated that whenever they would bring up, “Oh, if you want to go to college, you should probably lock it in a little bit,” I would just shut down and not listen. But that helps me now, because, you know, if you just give up now, it’s not going to go great for you after high school. So I understand what they were saying now, but back then I would just shut down when it came to school.

Shawnee Caruthers: No, I appreciate that. Asher, were you able to think of anything?

Asher: I think similarly to that. My dad is always pressing me about getting my college apps in and getting all my college things done before any deadlines come up. The pressure of having to get those done, and how he wants me to have them all done, is sometimes a lot for me, and sometimes I just don’t want to. I’m unmotivated to do it.

Advice for Jordan’s Mom, Peer Views and What Success Means

Shawnee Caruthers: Yeah. Totally fair. So just a couple more questions and then you’re off the hook, and then, Whitney, I’ll let you close us out. Owen and Asher, you were listening to the scenario around Jordan’s mom, how he doesn’t feel motivated, and she wants to know what’s next. What advice would you give Jordan’s mom?

Asher: I would tell her that she should try to push him toward internship programs, or maybe go to interest fairs or career fairs, and push him toward doing things that he might be interested in. For me, I took classes related to the creative media things I’m interested in, and I do a lot of stuff toward that, and that helped me decide what I want to do. So things like that.

Shawnee Caruthers: Amazing.

Owen: I think it’s about understanding that your future isn’t about the reading and the writing and the math that you do now. He likes building stuff. He likes fixing stuff. I know we have classes that are fixing cars or welding or stuff like that. So it’s just understanding that it’s about the skills you learn now and how they can translate to a future and to a career, and how it’s not just being a doctor or being a teacher. There’s other stuff you can do that suits his interests more than just school itself.

Shawnee Caruthers: Thank you. I said I had one more question, but I have one more, just because Mason just dropped it in the chat, and some others are curious about it as well. How are your peers having this conversation right now? Do they think of college and non-college as equal options? Are they putting one above the other? What’s the combination?

Owen: I have friends from all different opinions. I have some who have been college-bound from the get-go, and I have some who are really confused and unsure right now. Obviously I don’t know what’s going on in their home lives as much as I do for some. But I have some friends who are really focused on school and know what college they want to go to, and their parents could be any more or less involved and it wouldn’t matter, because they know what they want to do. And I have friends who say, “Oh, I don’t know, because school’s not for me. I don’t really know if there’s a skill I’m good at or a skill that I like.” Or I’m sure they know, they just don’t know how that could translate to a career. And I think it’s not all on the school to say, “Oh, do this, do that.” They have to go out themselves and find out what careers are available for the things that might not be just school itself, that they might be more motivated to do. So yeah, obviously I don’t know what’s going on in their lives and with their parents, but I think they’ll probably be looking at opportunities as the time comes.

Asher: I’ve had friends who have graduated recently, and they’ve done things that they’re interested in. One of my close friends found a trade school, and he commutes there, and he does automotive stuff. I think he was working at a mechanic shop in high school, and he wanted to keep pursuing that. He found out he was really interested in it, so he’s taking that path. And I also have some friends who are into that automotive stuff, and they’re looking at trade and internship opportunities out of state, so they kind of get a sort of college experience because they’re going out of their comfort zone and living somewhere else, but not really a full college experience. So different people. And then there are some of my friends who are dedicated to college, and some of them are trying to go to the craziest Ivy League schools, super hard to get into. That’s their dream. So definitely mixed.

Shawnee Caruthers: Okay. All right, great. Thank you. So, last question. We said at the start of the town hall that all parents want their kids to be successful, but sometimes, and I have a child as well, our definition of success is not their definition of success. So I’m wondering, Owen and Asher, what is your definition of success? What does success look like for you in high school and beyond?

Owen: I think success is a mix of, well, obviously money, but it’s not just money. It’s, are you doing what you want to do? Are you stuck with a job that you hate waking up and going to every morning? It’s more like, are you happy with your job? Are you proud that you worked for this, and can you support yourself easily? So it’s not just, you know, following exactly what your parents did and trying to make your parents happy, or doing a job that might pay well, but you just hate going to. It’s more or less, is this what you really want to do, and can you make a living doing it? That’s what I see as successful.

Shawnee Caruthers: What about you, Asher?

Asher: I think success for me is similar to that. Doing something I love. I’d rather do something I love and not make as much money than do something I hate and make more money. And being able to support myself, support family. Just being able to be independent, that’s success. Have a job, have stability.

Shawnee Caruthers: Amazing. Amazing. And I don’t know, do you have to jump and go back to class, or are you able to stay with us for the rest of the time, just in case there are questions in the chat? If you have to go, we totally understand.

Asher: I think we have a few more minutes. I think so. Twenty minutes, probably. Yeah.

Shawnee Caruthers: Okay, amazing. Well, I just want to say thank you. Talking to students is what we love best, and the insights that you’ve shared have been phenomenal. There may be some questions in the chat for you, so please look for those. If you do have any questions for Owen and Asher, these phenomenal young men, please feel free to drop them in the chat.

Moving a District Toward Learner-Centered Pathways

Shawnee Caruthers: Whitney, first, thank you for choosing Owen and Asher and creating space for them to share with us. We had a question come in at registration, Whitney, from a systems change lens. St. Vrain is very learner-centered, and from your perspective, how should we move a district and its schools toward being more learner-centered? What are the structures that are necessary for students like Owen and Asher and their peers to be able to think so expansively about their pathway options?

Whitney Mires: That’s a great question. I think you start by asking your stakeholders. It’s hard to argue with data. Those ICAP surveys address the comprehensive school counseling piece: their postsecondary plans, their personal development, and their current academics. There are questions all around those, and every year we use the results to inform our CTE programming and our offerings as a district. So you really ask your stakeholders what they want. Then the challenge, of course, is funding that. But you can start with that, and eventually the people will speak, and their voice is magnified. It’s hard to keep ignoring it. So that’s how you would start with change, even if it’s only a couple of classes that are offered differently. Resources vary, I understand, but the world being smaller, there are a lot of ways to access some of these classes and offerings, even if you’re rural or not close to a CTE or innovation center like we have in our district.

Shawnee Caruthers: Okay. Awesome. Thank you. And Whitney, kind of last words: is there anything that we haven’t discussed yet today that you hear from parents that you feel is really important to surface here?

Whitney Mires: I think, speaking both as a parent and as a professional school counselor, every parent, whether they’re willing to admit it or not, is secretly thinking, “What if my kid is still 30 and living in my basement?” Because we do want to give them wings, and there’s something to be said for that empty nest. Of course, that door is always going to remain open, because life happens. But we want to see our students and our children get on their feet and find, like Asher was saying, success on their own, and independence. I think parents more and more are worried about that, because, at least in our economy in Colorado, it’s very hard to live independently as a young person without roommates, without a steady professional job in many places. And it’s not unique to Colorado. I think that’s starting to become the reality in most of the US. As for helping address that, I’m not a financial advisor, but I try to tell parents, keep your options open, and if they end up in your basement, maybe it’s just temporary.

Shawnee Caruthers: Amazing. Well, thank you to the St. Vrain crew for joining us today. And Whitney, when you were talking about that, Marissa, who lives in Colorado with younger kids, and Mason, who has siblings in Colorado, were both shaking their heads, like, “Yes, the economy’s hard, especially in Colorado.” So I’m sure others who live in that area and beyond will agree.

Asking Jordan Questions and Making Every Pathway Feel Legitimate

Shawnee Caruthers: Thank you all for your insights. Now we’re going to turn it back to you, the participants. Owen and Whitney and Asher did an amazing job sharing from their perspective the insights that they’re hearing and seeing and feeling. So pretend Jordan’s mom is still in the room with us, and remember, she has seven months to go. Her kid just told her, “Hey, I’m not going to college now, but…” and she has lots and lots of questions. Let’s try to help her answer them. This is where, again, I invite you to come off mute, because we’re learning together, and we can only learn together if we talk and share together.

Shawnee Caruthers: The first question is: what is the first thing you tell her, and what is the first thing you would ask Jordan? This is not for the St. Vrain crew, unless they want to jump in, but for everyone else who is participating in the chat. What is the first thing that you would tell Jordan’s mom, and what is the first thing you would ask Jordan as the student? And remember, I’m always a teacher at heart, so I’m good at calling on people.

Josh Reppun: Shawnee, can I just real quick…

Shawnee Caruthers: Yeah.

Josh Reppun: Absolutely. I wouldn’t actually tell Jordan’s mother anything. What I would want to do is ask Jordan, and I do this for every student that I’ve interviewed in 2026 for my podcast. I’ve asked every one of them, “When were you most engaged, either inside school or outside school?” As soon as you ask them that and you give them a chance to just lay it out in print right in front of you, what you find out is what they actually think and feel, and what they care about, what they’re interested in. And from there you can go in almost any direction. There could be an apprenticeship around that particular interest, or a study abroad, or something like that. So I think that’s what I would focus on in asking Jordan: not assuming the negative, but assuming the positive. There had to have been moments where he was engaged. Let’s find out what those moments were like.

Shawnee Caruthers: Yeah, no, absolutely. And Josh, I’m glad you didn’t say, “Ask Jordan what he wants to be,” but instead led with curiosity and engagement. And we had some clues, right? He loves his dirt bike, and he was promoted to shift lead, and his friends call him anytime anything is broken. So we have a starting base. It’s how do we build on that? Okay, great. Thank you, Josh.

Shawnee Caruthers: The second, or the second or third, I’ll skip around: when we say to young people, “You don’t have to have it all figured out yet,” how do we make every pathway feel legitimate to Jordan’s mom? Regardless of what it is, regardless of what she had planned for Jordan, how do we make every pathway feel legitimate to parents? Anyone can answer, but I’m actually going to call on Cristal. Cristal is an assistant superintendent in the Ray-Pec School District in the Kansas City, Missouri, area, and I know that you are thinking about this all the time. So how do you make every pathway feel legitimate to parents?

Cristal: I think a lot of times it’s about sharing stories of other kids’ paths, whether they be other students or, you know, I have my son who went to college and my daughter who didn’t. A nephew who didn’t is welding and makes more money than my son who went to college. So I think sometimes sharing the different success stories, or even making connections, whether it be a student-to-student connection or a parent-to-parent connection, or asking, “Would you like to talk to these other students?”, makes it a little more real and a little less ethereal, and that is really helpful.

Shawnee Caruthers: Yeah, no, thank you for saying that. And we saw an example of that when Asher said his friend who just graduated, keeping in contact with those friends and following their journey and hearing their testimonies, helps shape their decisions as well. So thank you for jumping in and sharing, being volun-told. Truly appreciate that.

What Should Change So Students Hear About Options Earlier

Shawnee Caruthers: And then the last question for this is: what should change so that the next Jordan, whoever that Jordan is for you, and this is not for Cristal, this is for whoever wants to jump in, hears about these options long before senior year? That doesn’t mean that young person’s decision might change. They still might decide they don’t want to do dual credit or CTE, or circumstances may be such that they can’t. But what should change so that the next Jordan hears about whatever options there are before their senior year of high school? If someone can jump off mute and answer that, that would be great.

Cristal: I was actually going to brag about a nearby district that I think has better figured out K-12 than anybody I’ve seen, which is Piper School District. Their career days at the elementary level aren’t about everybody going into the gym and going to different tables. They go to almost like little workshops, and if I’m interested in being a scientist, the workshop I go to actually does a lab. So they’re doing interactive things. And then in their middle school experience, by eighth grade they have to have a little showcase on what their strengths are and what they’re thinking about. Then those eighth graders go speak to the fifth graders about it, which I think is amazing. And at 12th grade they have a capstone day where every senior presents on their internship experience and how they’ve grown in the portrait of a graduate and all those different things. Every senior does it as a graduation requirement.

We’ve actually stolen that idea and are going to do that this year. I just like their coordinated effort, that every age is being touched in some way, and it’s not just your stereotypical careers. It’s different ones. I think it just opens up their eyes to all the opportunities.

Shawnee Caruthers: Amazing. Thank you, Cristal, for sharing, and thank you, Marissa, for dropping in the link to Piper, which is in Kansas, here in the Missouri-Kansas ecosystem. Someone else was about to respond.

Nate McClennen: Yeah, I’ll jump on, Shawnee. Thanks. Super interesting conversation. I’m interested in… we’ve written a little bit about this, but the sequencing of what Jordan could experience, where in the early grades it’s about place and self. What does your community look like? What does your region look like? Do you understand how it works? Then moving into the middle grades around, what does it feel like to work in teams, project-based learning, ways to do impact projects that are impacting the community? And then profession-based in grades nine through 12, where they’re really diving into careers. But I sometimes feel like we jump right into professions without actually asking questions about self and about place and helping students gain the skills they need for working in teams and making projects come to life. So that’s just a different perspective on that.

Shawnee Caruthers: Yeah, no, I really appreciate that, and I think Owen and Asher surfaced some of those things as well when they were sharing. Those durable skills matter: the things that they’re learning about themselves and learning what’s transferable into different spaces that they might go into, redefining what success looks like based on their own competencies and how they want to show up in the world. So thank you, Nate, for sharing that.

Closing: A Staircase, Not a Ladder

Shawnee Caruthers: Okay, so as we begin to close: now what? If we go back to the poem, that was “Mother to Son” by Langston Hughes, I think it’s important to look at the shape of that mother’s journey, the staircase, and notice that it was a staircase. It was not a ladder, and that matters. Staircases have landings, meaning they have places to stop and simply catch your breath. They have corners where the path turns and you can’t see what’s next, and that’s what pathways look like now. A certificate can be a landing. A first job can be a corner. College can come later or not at all. We just want young people to be lifelong learners. That’s what we want for ourselves. But none of it means that you stop climbing.

So as you think about this conversation, as you think about the Jordan that you held close to your heart as we were sharing, think about what you can do this week for either the young person in your life or a different young person. Have that second conversation. And before you advise, and I love that you all leaned in with curiosity, and you were willing to ask Jordan questions before you began advising, before you advise, just like Josh said, just like Nate said, think about what that child, that young person, likes doing. What is he or she already naturally good at, or something that they worked hard to get good at? And more importantly, what is that young person worried about?

And then after that, maybe in this next month, go see a couple of options that the young person can see themselves in. Sit down with the school counselor and visit two real places: a training program, a job site, a campus. You know the quote, “You can’t be it unless you can see it.” Young people may have never been on a job site. Maybe they’ve never been on a campus. They may have never been to a community college. Take them there and let them imagine the possibilities. And then, by graduation, because remember, Jordan’s mom has seven months, line up one real next step, whether that’s an application, an interview, a start date for a job, or an apprenticeship, whatever it is. Let’s take one step, or help that young person take one step, so that the reality becomes a true possibility.

As always, it’s been lovely spending this time with you all together. Thank you all for how you engaged, for how you jumped in with your vulnerability and your transparency. Thank you for sharing your testimonies. Thank you to Owen and Asher for doing the hard work of sorting through, navigating and defining what success looks like. And thank you, Whitney, for allowing them the space to do that and bringing them on with us today to share their stories. And thank you to everyone who participated. Again, remember, there will be a recap blog coming out. Please think of your Jordan. Please never forget your Jordan, and hold them close and have conversations and give them space to just thrive.

Thank you for spending time with us today. We’ll see you next time.

Links

Piper Unified School District
Career Connections Framework (Ohio Department of Education and Workforce):
Shared Lane Services
Multiple Choice (PBS)
LivedX
GettingSmart: Integrating Place, Projects, and Profession to Build Purpose and Competency:
Civic Thriving: The Essential Complement to Human Flourishing (History Co:Lab):
Britebound, All Options on the Table
Silver Creek High School Counseling
Colorado’s Big Three (Colorado Workforce Development Council)