Richard Culatta on Digital For Good: Raising Kids To Thrive in an Online World

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You’re listening to Getting Smart Podcast. I’m Tom Vander Erk, and today I have the good pleasure to talk to my friend Richard Collada. He’s the CEO of the International Society for Technology and Education, better known as ISTI. It’s a global nonprofit that serves education leaders in 127 countries. Before this, Richard was appointed by President Obama as the director of the Office of EdTech. Richard, you followed a really distinguished line of leaders, some of my favorite people, John Bailey and Linda Roberts and Susan Patrick, really great, great folks, and you extended their leadership in a really compelling way.

We’ve had such a guest watching your work at ISTI. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It’s great to be here. I did follow some great leaders. My goal every day was just to not screw up the great things that they had started. I forgot Karen Cader. Karen Cader? Sure, absolutely. So you worked with and learned from some of the best.

In addition to being one of the leading voices on the planet for better education for all kids, using the best tools available. Richard’s also the author of a great new book called Digital for Good Raising Kids to Thrive in an Online World. We’re going to come back to that, but Richard, you have such an interesting background and you have these different sort of on-ramps to EdTech and I’d love to have you just sort of summarize in a minute or two what some of these different life experiences taught you. I think you started, your first work in EdTech was really in the higher ed space. Is that right? Correct. I actually worked helping prepare pre-service teachers. I worked very briefly. I’m a certified teacher. I worked very briefly in the classroom, but then moved into helping teach new teachers and loved it and frankly would probably still be doing that if I hadn’t gotten a weird phone call one day.

You spent a year in Guatemala. What was that about and any tech insights that you brought back from Guatemala? I did. Wow, you do your homework. So I met some great people that were trying to stand up a series of schools in Guatemala. That’s a country where basically the public education system is completely non-functional and so we stood up a series of schools and the idea of the schools was if you could create a school environment where you had kids that were from lower income families mixed in with kids who were from the small middle class or upper class families in Guatemala, which traditionally never crossed paths. They live in completely different worlds, but if we could bring them in and help them have a good education experience together, they would leave and actually begin to bridge some of the great divides that exist in that country. So that’s what we worked on. In fact, one quick fact, when we first were there, there was a huge problem getting education materials there. It was very deep. It was up in the mountains of Guatemala.

And so I proposed at one point that we tried to get the schools connected to the internet, which back in the day, I mean, that was just like, no, but there was no internet in the town, right? And we got this weird satellite dish and bounced it off some satellite somewhere and ended up connecting these schools in mountains in Guatemala to the internet and really gave an opportunity to a bunch of kids that had no shot otherwise. Rich, you also had a really rich experience working on Capitol Hill. I think you had a chance to work with our Washington Senator, Patty Murray. What did you, you know, what did that add to your arsenal in terms of the way you think about education and ed tech? I did. It was a great opportunity to work for Patty Murray, who’s just a fantastic senator. You know, she’s one of those people that is, she’s who she is when she’s in front of the camera and when she’s off the camera, right? And I can tell you from working on the Hill, not a lot of people fall into that bucket, but she was just absolutely as dedicated and devoted to helping make the country a better place and particularly helping on issues of education, youth homelessness.

Those were areas she cared deeply about. For me personally, it was really helpful to understand the way policy can have an impact on creating the environment for education. I think we miss that a lot of times, right? Policy seems like this wonky thing that’s out there, but it can really shape in some major ways what happens in schools where what things get funded and what don’t. And so just understanding the very kind of complex world of how policy comes together and how collaborative the process is was really helpful for me and something that I’ve continued to leverage on everything that I’ve done. Rich, let’s spend a couple of minutes talking about ISTI. I really appreciate your leadership at ISTI now. It’s been more than four years, right? And lower four years, yeah.

It’s so interesting, Rich, that in some respects the world came to you in the last two years, right? You had spent years gathering these global ed tech educators, and then suddenly we were all ed tech educators, parents and teachers alike around the globe, and you and the ISTI team really provided invaluable resources over the last two years. What are you proud of in terms of what you’ve accomplished in the last couple of years at ISTI? Yeah, it’s certainly not the reason I would have wanted to have the whole world come to us, but I do feel like we were able to really work with every state in the US, many countries around the world, many districts, parents. One of the things that we really focus on at ISTI is what we sort of call the people side of technology and education. And so what we see over and over again is there are people understand that you have to have internet access, you have to have devices, right? Finally, we now understand that. And so there’s this push to do that.

What we miss so often is the fact that technology, all the technology, all the software, all the devices really leads to very little if you don’t have teachers, parents, education leaders who have a vision for how to use it in really transformational ways, right? A scanned, you know, a PDF of a textbook on a screen does very little to transform learning, right? Whereas if you can use that technology to close equity gaps, to make learning more engaging, to turn students into creators and designers, to keep parents more informed, right? All of those things are where the real magic happens. And unfortunately, it’s what’s largely missing. And so that’s what we focus on. And so we have a whole series of both events. We created a certification program for educators, a big kind of a tech boot camp that we call Summer Learning Academy, so teachers can come in and learn how can they use technology in ways that really, really change the learning experience for the students, for them, and not just, you know, digitize traditional practice. Rich, I think starting about two years ago, you stepped into the workforce development space and launched an initiative called Skill Rise that I think was really thoughtful, really well timed as the world begins to move away from just using degrees and a number of classes that you passed to being really thoughtful about skills that have been developed.

And that was an interesting change for you guys stepping into that space. Why was that? Why did that feel important? Yeah, so Skill Rise, and we keep it sort of a bit as a separate brand, it’s a separate initiative. And so skillrise.org is where you can learn more about this project. It really happened because we had a number of really great organizations that are focused on helping prepare people, adult learners for future work opportunities. And one of the things that happened is a number of them came to us and said we are really struggling when it comes to preparing them on the digital skills. So how do you use technology to continue to learn and to continue to be effective in a very digital work environment? Can you help us?

And they looked at what we’d been doing on the K-12 side and they’re like this is really fantastic. We have the IST standards that help create a guideline for how to do this. We need that for the higher, for the adult learning space. So with some, you know, fortunately some generous funding, we were able to kick off that initiative. And it’s really been very helpful to say what are, what do digital skills look like? What do the IST standards look like when they’re applied to adult learners? And there’s been just great uptake and interest in that project. Have you mastered the art of the virtual conference?

Man, we’re still, we’re trying. We’re doing all we can. Look, look, you know, we, it’s tricky when you’re us because we go around, you know, giving people a hard time for using technology in not very effective ways. And so when it came time to do our event, our big IST live event, right, you know, 20,000 people that come together. And our team started looking at doing online conferences. We knew we were not going to be able to do it safely, face to face. We started online. So we started signing up for all these online conferences we could go to and we’re going to steal all the best ideas, you know, and what ended up happening is our team was like, please don’t make me go to another one. Please, they’re so bad. We can’t do it because they were mostly just pre-recorded videos. And even if you were logged on with, you know, 5,000 other people, it felt very isolated.

You know, there was no interaction. So long story short, our team decided to build an online event platform from scratch that would be focused on helping people interact and engage with each other over just listening to the content. So we just, we actually just finished that event. It happened a week ago. We had a great number of people from 90 countries around the world participate and lots of lots of engagement. We had it teed up. So when you log in, it helps suggest people that you’ve never met before, but have similar interests that you might want to learn from. And so it was kind of this big learning festival in a virtual space. So, Rich, let’s dive in and talk about digital for good, your new book.

Yeah. Why would the head of ISTI, the leading ed tech teacher association in the world, why, why a book for parents? So, so it’s, it’s funny because, you know, you could look at all kinds of professional reasons why I might write this book. The truth that I will reveal to you here is, you know, as you know, I have four kids and they are between the ages of 16 and eight, right? And so we were like right in the throes of how to figure out how to do technology and the balance and screen time and all that sort of stuff.

So I’m like, great, me and my wife’s like, well, how do we deal with these things? You should know this is your career. And what was fascinating to me is as I started to look at the information that is available for parents around using technology. It is, it’s very outdated. A lot of it, a lot of the books out there are very outdated based on research that’s very old. Also, it has a very negative sort of foundation. So, so it’s all about what not to do and how to, you know, keep your kids off of tech forever and how to bury your devices in the background and the backyard and how we’re, you know, we’re all doomed because tech is making all of our kids stupid.

Literally, those are like some of the names of these books, right? And, and I just went, that is not what I’m seeing when I went with my kids with other kids that I interact with. I’m seeing bright, creative kids who are interested and willing to use technology in really meaningful ways, but we’re not providing them a structure, a framework. We’re not, we’re not setting them up for success in a virtual world. And so, as I started interviewing parents and interviewing teachers and before I knew it, I had all this, both great examples and some really scary examples and I thought, man, this is something that I need to share. And so that’s, that’s how we ended up with a book.

Well, I say I appreciate your take and I do want to note that this book is is not only great for parents. It’s a terrific book for educators because it is a super thoughtful take on how we as humans use smart tools to get smarter and to do to do good work. So I appreciate that take. I also, I appreciated the in the introduction you you set back and sort of looked at the grand sweep of history and sort of noted that that while we we may have raised one generation of digital kids. This is the first generation of mobile kids that my grandkids are really the first kids that that grew up with with mobile devices being pretty ubiquitous and so this is really brand new in terms of both for the kids and for the parents so I appreciate that. I think that’s really important and that’s I mean clearly that’s why I put it in the book but it’s like, I think we forget because we grew up as this was all happening right.

We remember as all these all this new tech was coming out. We are now as parents as parents and teachers are sort of the first generation, if you will, that is responsible for onboarding young people into this world that already exists. Yes, it’s always changing but it already exists. And that’s a different skill. It requires different conversations it requires different actions than what happened with us as we were kind of, you know, growing up with the technology. I appreciate that early on you, you make a call for digital citizenship. What is that why is it important. Digital citizenship, I believe is this, you know, this idea that we are, we recognize that we are members of a online community, a virtual community, and as members of a virtual community in order for it to be a healthy community. There are certain responsibilities, certain norms that we need to agree to. And that’s what I outlined in the book.

But interestingly enough, the term digital citizenship is used a lot in education. It’s used somewhat even in families. But as we look at how it’s currently being used, it is really focused on what I would consider online safety. Now online safety matters. It’s important. We want our kids to be safe online. But Tommy, I think about my 16 year old daughter, she’s learning to drive. And so when we get in the car, we put it on the seatbelt. There’s no question. It’s not a debate. It’s not the seatbelt goes on, right? But we don’t then spend the next two hours talking about the seatbelt. We talk about where are we going and how are we going to get there and who are we going with and what do we do if there’s a problem that comes up along the way, right? And I feel like the digital citizenship conversation we’ve been having has been focused on the seatbelt. And we have to say, yes, do we want to be safe online? Of course we do. But that is just such a thin piece of the skills that are required to be effective digital citizens. We have to know how to be inclusive, how to be informed, how to not be taken advantage of by misinformation. We need to know how to use tech to make our communities better places. Those are all the skills that are involved with being effective digital citizens.

And so that’s my goal is to sort of broaden what we mean when we say digital citizens. So chapter four dives into this idea of being an informed consumer. I’d love to have you say a little bit more about that. What does that mean? What does it mean for, let’s do maybe two personas, what does it mean for your eight year old and what does it mean for your 16 year old? Yeah, so being informed. And by the way, in the book, I pitch all of these skills again in as positive skills of things that we can demonstrate and that we can support as parents. And so instead of saying, you know, don’t avoid fake news or whatever, instead of saying how do we be informed? How can we help be informed? And so for a little kid, my eight year old, part of what that means is understanding that these devices that he has access to are the most powerful learning library that he could ever imagine. And so in some ways it means just modeling that we can turn to technology to make more meaning out of the world around us.

We were just the other day, there was a bug, a weird bug in our house that he found and, you know, normally I could be like, oh, let’s just get that bug out of the house. And we said, no, let’s let’s turn that into a learning moment, right? And so we took a picture of it. We have a, you know, online, we could do a picture match and we found that it was a bug. It turned out to be a brown murmurated stink bug. We learned all about them. It was just, it just can take moments in life and turn them into learning moments. And so that was something that we were able to model. Now, you talk about on the other end of that, I was 16 year old and there’s some different skills to be informed there, right? That’s where we need to start talking about how do we recognize the right information to help make the right decision and have her not get manipulated. And again, fake news, you know, we use that a lot and there is definitely true, true fake news, but, but it’s a little bit of an oversimplification because there’s all kinds of information that’s available online. What we need our kids to be learning is how to recognize when a particular source of information is useful for our intended purpose. And so in the book, I talk about how can we become information curators, just like museum curators, right?

How do we recognize when there’s information that is valuable enough for our purpose that we should, we should retain it and be able to call on it again? And when is there information, either because it’s just blatantly false or because it’s intended for a different purpose than what we need and be able to choose not to use it? Well, while at the whole time being careful that we are keeping a balanced diet and not just taking in information that agrees with our and reinforces our existing viewpoints. Those are the types of skills we’re learning, you know, and when you get to be 16, 17, etc. Yeah, I so I appreciated this chapter and just in that, in that spirit of thinking in terms of the sweep of history, we’re in the first 20 months of, of synthetic content, right? Where content, very sophisticated content is being produced and it really demands that we help young people become thoughtful consumers. So I really appreciated this chapter. This whole synthetic video is going to really, it’s going to be a big thing. And it’s going to demand that every hour of the day that they’re using devices that they’re thinking about what they saw, what the source is, what it means, how they can confirm. And I actually actually talk about that a bit in the book is is how how challenging it is when the tools that we are familiar, you know, it’s a slightly more experienced people are used to distinguish what is real from what was not right what was what was invented and it was it was very easy to do.

It’s still doable, but the way that we used to do it the tools that we use to do it are not actually that useful that helpful for kids growing up in this very media rich world and in this world where where AI can fabricate media very easily. And so it’s just a new, it’s just a new skill set that we have to teach but but if we if we don’t teach it we’re really going to be in trouble. It is and it feel I haven’t heard this term before but we also need to be teaching like a business model literacy so that kids are cognizant of how a content producer got paid right to get paid to produce that content or is it ad supported and you know what’s my role in consuming this content and is one of the questions that I say as we talk about what are the new new models right to look at one of the questions I say is kids we should practice with our kids identifying who funded this particular piece of media right in traditional media that’s really easy to find out easier to find out in online media it’s you can still figure it out but we’ve just become accustomed to I don’t know it’s just it’s just here. No it’s not just here somebody funded it and knowing who funded it is a huge piece of the puzzle of determining whether I should rely on that information or not.

I think in chapter three you talk about tech on our terms I think this is related right of being conscious of using the tool for your purpose. Not necessarily the producers purpose right. Yeah that’s right and it’s again it’s against this idea this idea of like let’s just not let kids have access to technology or let’s hide them for that is a terrible idea right we want to do the opposite of that we want to say no let’s use technology but let’s use it with the right scaffolding and one of those pieces of scaffolding is saying is it used are you using it on your terms are you playing this game because there’s a streak that’s been built in that you know if you stop playing you’re going to lose a bunch of points because if that’s what you’re doing it you’re falling to a trick that the developer has built in right are you using it are you on your terms or using it on somebody else’s terms and if we can just help teach that concept alone it will just make a huge difference in the in the culture of tech use in our homes in our schools. I love that and rich I’m going to jump to the end of the book. Chapter eight was super interesting it’s it’s titled digital well being is a team sport.

Talk about I’ve never seen that concept stated that way but what do you mean by that. So so in in a lot of the both the research I did in reading a bunch of existing books that are out there and talking to teachers and talking to parents. It struck me that all of the responsibility for creating you know digital well being for our kids was sort of being thrown at the parents and teachers in some cases and and while there is enormous responsibility that does need to go to parents and teachers and I talk about that in the book. I as I realized it is disingenuous to pretend that this is a problem that only teachers and parents should be should be dealing with and so in that chapter where I say this is a team sport I outline all of the other players that that should in some cases that are or that need to be involved with this including the developers of the tech that we use right. It is they have a very important role in making sure again long term we we can it’s it’s it’s fun to treat them as a bit of a punching bag but long term their ability to stay in business depends on being able to help create healthy digital humans and so what what should their role be what should the role of policymakers be what should the role of libraries and librarians be so though part of what I try to tee up is.

As parents and teachers we aren’t in this alone we are in this with other people who have a vested interest in trying to help create a healthy digital environment for our kids but we just often don’t talk to them and we often don’t know what their job is and therefore don’t know how to engage with them in effective ways. Rich I want to shift gears and talk about the artificial intelligence and more broadly the use of smart tools and education. I as a concept has been around for 60 years but we’re really in about the fourth year of ubiquitous use across society and maybe in just the first or second year and in some widespread use in sort of in the background and in learning applications. Would love to have you riff a little bit on both the benefits and concerns that you have about the use of smart tools in and supporting education. Yeah, happy to and it’s a great it’s great that we’re talking about this because one of the things that I think when I think about AI and we’ll start with the really the potential which is.

There are many parts of the education experience that are very inefficient and and we know we know from a bunch of research from Todd Rose and other people that have written about this that that every individual learner has very unique skills and and and challenges and interests. And so in order to help create an effective learning environment we have to be aware of that we have to adapt and adjust to all of that right that is hard to do if you’re on paper and pencil making you know lesson plans or grading things on you know and on you know paper right so so AI has a really powerful ability to help us creating much more personalized streamlines. And uniquely tailored learning experience so that part of it I’m super excited about but along with any great new tool there are some there are some some challenges and one of the challenges is. It could have if implemented incorrectly the ability to be a bit of a black box right and so so when decisions are made about my learning as a student or the types of activities that I will be presented with. And they are done without my input or without my understanding by a computer algorithm that maybe my teacher or my parent doesn’t even understand.

Now we start to get into some dangerous territory because one of the most important things that students need to learn how to do is recognize what where their skill gaps are and what choices they can make to close them. So if AI can be used to help tee up better options to help provide information that helps students and teachers and parents make better choices. It will be one of the best things that will ever happen to education if instead what it does is take away choices and decisions and sort of algorithmically make all those decisions on its own. We get to a place that’s actually really really really dangerous. Rich I just want to in the spirit of your book of AI for good just want to acknowledge that we’re at the very beginning of this era in history where kids in high school and college can have access to the most powerful open tools ever created

and have the ability in teams that might include teenagers elsewhere on the planet as well as adults in academic and work settings to attack some of the world’s biggest problems using the smartest tools ever created. And just this opportunity for difference making starting in teenage years that opportunity has just never existed and that’s really exciting. A hundred percent and actually I’m so glad that you mentioned that because often when people are talking to me about AI and education what they want to know is like what does it look like in the classroom you know what sort of how can I be used to deliver math better right you’re like OK we can probably do that. The really exciting part is not how do you use a I deliver math better again though we should look at that it is how do we teach kids to use AI as a tool to tackle these big world problems that you’re talking about right and that’s where it gets really exciting so so it’s not just like buy some AI off the shelf and put it in front of kids it’s what do we need to be teaching them about when AI is useful what do we need to be talking about about the ethics around use of AI.

What what are some of the the questions that we should be preparing them with as they then go into worlds where you know in their in their future jobs not every member of the team that they’re going to be working on is going to be human. How do we prepare them for that work and there are ways to do it but in their great ways they’re great programs back at ISTI we have a great curriculum for students on how to help how to help prepare them to work in an AI infused environment but those are the types of conversations that will really pay powerful dividends down the road. I love that asking really good questions helping kids think about building data sets. Where does that data come from what bias might be included in that data. I appreciate ISTI support for for data science and math modeling. Rich I also just want to note that it’s never been easier for teenagers to launch a campaign or to code an app or to start a business or to access capital. I mean all of these things have improved and it’s just it’s made right now the best time in history to be a teenager. Teenagers can change the world. They can launch a campaign. They can create a new organization. They can use smart tools to attack big problems in their community. And that’s super exciting.

I didn’t get to record some new teacher competencies the willingness to say I don’t know but how might we right. Right. I mean this is the cool part. So I think about you know when we were growing up Tom like everybody’s like oh you know you matter your voice matters but it was a lie. We know it was a lie. There was no way we couldn’t vote. We couldn’t you know there’s no way to get our voice out if we had an idea. We certainly couldn’t have any you know input into what we were learning in school or how we were learning it right now it’s very different right now we’re in a world where kids have the tools to really make an impact and not just to pretend one a real impact on on the world on on policy on the way we engage with our community on on what we support and not support their voice really matters not just in a kind of a cute thing to say but in an actual meaningful measurable way. And that’s a fun time like what a fun time to be growing up right especially if we can you know if they’re growing up in an environment where we provide the scaffolding so that they can learn to leverage these powerful tools in a way that can make a true meaningful impact in the world around them. Rich I’d love to wrap up with a discussion of inclusion chapter five is really a beautiful dialogue but I do worry that education that excuse me that technology particularly machine learning is a is a ratchet that’s creating inequity in the world.

How do we approach this as educators and parents with an inclusion and equity mindset. So Tom one of the things that I found as I was looking at how we’re currently preparing kids for virtual space is it is a very frankly it’s a very selfish narrative right it’s how do you stay safe how do you you know make sure you don’t get take advantage you know get taken advantage of online how do you make sure you don’t post private information. But it’s not a narrative around how do you create an inclusive virtual space for others. And that is something we have to change yes of course we want everybody to still be safe for themselves. But one of the things that I looked at some of the research that I saw showed that a huge number of kids have witnessed some sort of online you know bullying or other other sort of you know inappropriate behavior and 90% of them don’t do anything about it. It’s not because they’re bad kids it’s not because it’s because we haven’t talked to them about what to do right we’ve said here’s how to keep yourself safe but not how to be inclusive for other you know create an inclusive environment. But here’s the bit of hope that I’ll share is what we see is when somebody takes action right when they actually step in and say hey it’s okay I want to hear what you have to say or hey don’t talk about my friend that way or how you know if we if we create this sort of inclusive environment.

It’s not because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it’s because it is something that is very different from the way I think about it. It doesn’t mean that my viewpoints are wrong. It doesn’t mean I have to change my viewpoints. It just is an understanding that we both become better people as we engage around a topic that we feel differently about. And if we can keep those two pieces in mind, right, that that being a good digital citizen is creating an inclusive space for others as well as, you know, watching out for yourself and recognizing the value in engaging with people who have differing viewpoints, it creates a very different future for for us. I also want to just circle back to your idea of inclusion as a team sport and the role we all have a role to play in promoting positive behaviors and creating safe and constructive cultures, but public policy has a big role to play in promoting equity and inclusion as well, right. It absolutely does and we need to be thinking about looking at, you know, what what we’re funding, certainly in in oversight of companies that are providing platforms. Look, even one of the things I suggest in the book, which I know is a little crazy is there is no public media equivalent in the social media space, right.

So we have, you know, PBS we have we have news programs that were created to fill in gaps where the commercial, you know, broadcasting sector was was dropping the ball frankly or didn’t have a market incentive to do. There is no equivalent of that in the in the today’s virtual space the only way that we can have engagement in a digital virtual space is on a commercial platform that is trying to, you know, take advantage of us for selling advertising I don’t know how else to say it. And so so some thinking about what is the role of, you know, public media of public policy of tech providers to rethink this this world and make sure we’re creating a digital world that we actually want to live in is is really critical. Maybe we’ve been talking to Richard Colada CEO of ISTI about his new book digital for good raising kids to thrive in an online world. It’s a great book for parents. It’s a great book for teachers. Richard thanks for your contribution and thanks for being on the podcast. Tom, thank you so much always great to talk to you.

Richard work work and we send folks to learn more can they just find it is the dark org. So you can go to ISTI.org or just go search if you’re interested in the book you can find that on on Amazon or local book shops we’ve been really making sure that we’re making it available at local book shops across the country so so either way you can go and learn more about the book. And then also again on on ISTI.org if you want more information about some of the work that we’re doing particularly for for teachers. Thanks for being with us for sure. Tom Van Der Rook keep learning keep innovating.

Another thanks to our podcast sponsors screencastify to learn more about the power of video to engage learners check out screencastify.com slash getting smart. There’s a link in the show notes as well for the getting smart podcast. This is Jessica signing off.