Katie Martin on Evolving Education: Shifting to a Learner-Centered Paradigm

Hey listeners, over the last few months, the Getting Smart team has been working on identifying 20 invention opportunities and learning and development, and have pulled all of that together into a report that was made possible by the Walton Family Foundation and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. These opportunities have the possibility to completely shift what we talk about when we talk about schooling. Check out our recommendations, insights, and more at the

show notes or at www.gettingsmart.com. You’re listening to the Getting Smart podcast. I’m Rebecca Middles, and today we are joined by Katie Martin, Chief Impact Officer at Learner Center Collaborative. Katie supports school and district leaders to reimagine school along with a professional learning team. Katie supports district and school leaders to create the conditions and experiences to shift to Learner

Center models of education. Before her time at Learner Center Collaborative, Katie was an educator and also served as director of district leadership at the Buck Institute for Education. She is recently the author of Evolving Education Shifting to a Learner-Centered Paradigm. Katie, thank you so much for joining us today. Can you tell us about Learner Center Collaborative? Yeah, I’m super excited to share this news. We are a group of educators that have evolved from altitude learning

work that we’ve been doing with partners for the last almost five years, and we are continuing to support educators, schools, districts, and states. We are excited to expand our offerings and really support this shift to learner-centered education more broadly across the U.S. And who knows globally too? This is big news. Congratulations. I know there are so many of us that are excited and cheering for you. A big fan of your work before the one that we’re going to be talking about

today too, and so I’d love to kick off by just asking where your Learner Center drive comes from. I know in this new book you’ve talked about your journey, which I thought was really wonderful to hear your path and the story of a personal experience. And just curious about how much that played into the role that you now take, not only as an educator when you were talking about this journey, but also as a leader in helping support others in this work now. Yeah, I mean, I think

all of us, it starts with our own stories and experiences. And for me as a student, I just remember feeling really disengaged, but just kind of going through the motions in school. And I remember thinking a lot of times like, there has to be a better way of doing this. We’re spending so much time in school, and I like to share in third grade, my teacher made me read The Mouse and the Motorcycle. And I remember thinking, I hate this book. Why do I have to read this book and answer

questions? Why do I have to tell you what the main idea is? Isn’t there a lot of ways to think about this? And so those are kind of my earliest memories of school. And I went through, I got my B average because I had to, but it wasn’t until college that I really got to learn in ways that allowed for creativity. And I got to ask questions and do research and really investigate things that mattered to me. And I just thought, this is awesome. I love learning. I’m excited about this. I want

to read more. And then I thought, why can’t we do this earlier? Why do I have to wait until college to really learn in ways that are powerful? And so my mom is a teacher. I learned from her in so many different ways. But it was really when I entered my credential program, I decided, I don’t want to be the teacher that I had. I want to be the teacher that allows kids to think differently and to explore their passions and to really see themselves as essential to the

learning process. And so that’s really where this started for me. And as I’ve gotten to explore different classrooms and different models and connect with other educators, I’ve seen more and more in my ideas about what’s possible have been expanded. And so I’m even more motivated and inspired to create these opportunities for more kids. And then I think the third part of this is being a mom and seeing what works for my own kids and seeing school through their eyes. And what I see of them

as individuals and how they view school, I just am even more and more committed to really creating opportunities that all kids get to see who they, you know, their gifts and their strengths and grow as individuals in school so that they can be productive now and throughout their lives. If you’re a fan of Katie’s first book, Like I Am, I’m sure you enjoyed all of the examples of teachers and her teaching experience. What I love about this new book that we’ll move into in just a second

is similar to what you just shared right now is your journey about the way even math was approached and supported along your journey, similar to what you’ve already shared. I’m just giving some more plugs for this new book because I really feel like the times that you pull in your own children into this as a mother, the times that you experience this as a learner yourself, really complements both the first book and this next book that we’ll talk about today. So really

exciting to share more about that. Congratulations on that, evolving education and shifting to a learner center paradigm. What was your emphasis for writing this book, the second one, this version? Yeah, I think that you like you just said, Rebecca, this this book is very vulnerable for me. This book is, you know, the first time I’ve shared more stories about me and my journey and kind of what has led me to be inspired and motivated as an educator and things that have held me back.

I share a lot about my kids, you know, with their permission to be very clear, they’re going into sixth and seventh grade and I’ve asked Zach, you know, when I when I speak to people and share his story, I always ask, is it okay with you still buddy? And he goes, yeah, mom, I want to inspire teachers, I’m excited for you to share. So, so I think that that has been a big piece is is when I when I have been more open and vulnerable about what’s really happening in schools

and the impact that it has on us as individuals, right, that it’s not just going through school, it’s not just getting through the day and surviving. But when we can create classrooms that really empower learners and honor them for who they are, it impacts the whole their whole lives, right? It impacts it impacts much more than just the day to day. And so that was the more I saw those stories and the more I started to see the connections in my own kids, my own experiences and so many other

educators that I’ve talked to, I really wanted to write a book that that pushed us to think differently, that pushed us to not just, you know, tinker around the edges and to really think differently about how we view learners and how we view the role of education. I appreciate that that take because I think a lot of us will make personal connections as we’re as I did when I was reading it, thinking as a daughter of educators myself and a mother with similar

age children, it was great for me to not only be brought into your story, but then also think about my I love also that you have pieces put into your book about put into practice. So I definitely think there’s an intention that lines up to what you just shared about here’s how to even process some of these pieces and how you can take from this and make it your own in your personalized context and giving people a really intentional time to reflect throughout the book. Also super

appreciated. Yeah, I mean, I think that that’s that’s an important piece. This is not a recipe book, right? There is there is not like just do this and you’re going to change everything. It’s intentional about our mindsets, about our practices. And I really think evolving education is not about changing everything. It’s not about saying what you did didn’t work. It is about looking at our past, understanding the research and understanding the kids that are in our schools and classrooms

and figuring out how we move forward from there, what works, what doesn’t, what’s possible, right? Those are the things that I continually think about. So I also really just want to make sure that people aren’t taking this as, Oh my gosh, everything I’ve done has been wrong. Or this hasn’t worked. If it’s worked in your classroom, if it’s worked in your context, let’s build on that, right? Let’s use it. And then let’s also get rid of things that aren’t working so that we can do more of what

does and prioritize what matters most. And so that putting it into practice is really that opportunity to say, What do I connect with? What is making me think differently? And what are some some takeaways that I want to make sure to bring back to my own practice? That dedication, I think really sings out in your book, because I think people that have been practitioners in this space, you hear that when you read books from folks that have done the work versus maybe a theory or

research approach. I really feel like people that have been in that work have that empathy about how hard it is. And also if we believe in meeting learners where they’re at, how are we also meeting educators where they’re at and helping them understand the things that they’re doing well. Great teachings, great teaching, right? How can we do systemic approaches? You can be thinking about that and processing because every system’s got different levels of readiness. So I love that

that’s true and how you present that. And thank you for sharing more about that. There’s also recent conversations about learner-centered approaches and sometimes a miss if it’s not got that cultural responsive piece, because really the true intent, I believe, I think you do too, is that a learner-centered approach is cultural responsive because you are taking into account the learners that you’re serving that you’re in front of that you’re there to help support.

Are there pieces that you would add to that or additional support that you would recommend to have robust learner-centered approaches that meet that culturally responsive aspect that you’d want to share? Yeah, absolutely, Rebecca. I think that learner-centered at its core is about a culturally responsive, equitable, and inclusive environment. If you don’t have a learning environment where each individual feels cared about, valued, and seen for who they are, for what they bring,

for what they can become, then I don’t consider that to be learner-centered. That is a fundamental aspect of valuing, honoring the individuals. And teachers have to be seen in that environment too. The educational administrators, everyone has to be seen for who they are. Too often we get this confused and I talk about this in the book around gate education, gifted and talented, that those are for the kids who are smart. We have all of these authentic learning experiences

for kids who are seen as smart, which traditionally we know are high-income white students, more so than a more diverse population. And so my take is that when we can see each individual for who they are, we can honor the diverse ways that we learn and show what we know, we can see the gifts that we all bring. And one of my favorite reminders of this is students saying, help me understand how I’m smart, not if I’m smart. And so I think that is the approach

that we really want to think about here, is understanding the gifts that everyone brings and their backgrounds. And that makes the classroom so much more fun and interesting when we can talk about our different perspectives rather than make everybody the same. So that is a big piece, very much a cornerstone or a foundation of learner-centered practices. Katie, I agree with this so much and this is why I actually favor the term learner-centered over

something like competency-based or the term gate or the term remedial. Obviously, because I feel like that still implies this average expectation for a student. When it’s truly learner-centered, you’re just meeting students where they are and what they need to help move them forward. Unfortunately, a lot of us might be trapped in systems that are time-bound and maybe have more traditional approaches and so they feel like the gate and those other are the best courses of

action to meet needs that weren’t being met in a traditional model. So I want to be clear, we’re not saying we’re against that. But in a true learner-centered approach, that would just be embedded in the practice and that would just be meeting students where they have to help facilitate growth. So I appreciate that too. Yeah, that everyone can have access to those really authentic, meaningful learning experiences that they’re not just for some kids,

but if we really understand how we learn that we want all kids to have access to those types of learning experiences. I noticed in your chart, and you are a fan of color. I have always loved this about what you do and your design and you bringing that work in and you’ve always been very clear about how much you enjoy that. And so I was not surprised to see this beautiful chart about building learner agency in your book. I also recognize, as I’m sure others will, a connection

to the Nostr’s chart out there about managing complex change. And those of you that are just listening to this don’t have your hands on the book yet. Imagine a chart with very colorful columns and a diagonal approach of when you’re missing some of these components. This is what you’re experiencing. You know, there’s a lot of us that are fans of that, but it’s usually meant for really larger systemic change. What I really like about the one that Katie has in her new book is about

learner agency for educators. So you can look at your system as a classroom or as a learning environment. What are those pieces that you need? Could you walk us? It seemed like it was an intentional refinement to make it more accessible for educators. Could you tell us more? Sure. So yeah, definitely a fan of the Nostr model and thinking about complex change and knowing how it’s helpful for people to understand, oh, if I’m missing a piece, it has an impact on the outcome.

Right. And so systems thinking, really understanding how each, each part of the design needs to be intentional. And so as I was kind of walking through the example in the book with my daughter’s learning journey, the way that, you know, I thought about how sometimes we think learner agency is just like, do whatever you want, have fun, go out and learn. And then people go, but Mike, that doesn’t work in my classroom, but the kids don’t know what they want to learn about. They don’t have, you

know, the work isn’t good. And so this model starts with exposure and purpose that really, we’re, we’re expanding kids opportunities. We’re giving them more opportunities to understand what they care about and we’re connecting them to the other ideas and setting purpose for learning, right? This can be your standards. This can be goals in your community. It could be an individual purpose for a student. It just means that you need to have, if you don’t have exposure and

purpose for learning, you’re going to be kind of off meandering and just, it’s just in compliance mode. Then we want to set goals and plan for how we are going to learn, right? If we know if we set goals, we’re more likely to actually meet them. And so often the goals, maybe the teachers have or the district has, but the students don’t know about them. And so they’re just kind of following along compliantly or not. And, and they don’t actually take ownership. And so once we have goals

and we plan for our learning journey, then we have to take action. We have to do something, right? Just like we have to do as educators, if we never actually try, you just sit there waiting and thinking, this would be a good idea. It’s, you know, it’s aspirational, but you actually don’t try something. And you know, once we try something, we learn like, Oh, this is hard. This is what I’d need to learn more about. And so we need that guidance and support of educators. And, and through

the process, that’s where we come in as educators to structure, support, guide, not just to be the one with all the information. And then ultimately through the journey, we have to reflect and revise and go back to some of these different steps. And if we can do that, we can develop the competence and confidence of our learners in really powerful ways. Yeah, you mentioned some great systems that, that you’ve been a part of or that you referenced, I think, in many cases, some intentional shifting

to learn a facilitator as an example instead of teacher, because recognizing that students have access to a lot of resources, I know my children do. And they’re learning about a lot of things that are outside of my comfort zone. And I don’t want to necessarily squash those interests, but as a facilitator or guidance and support like you referenced parent or educator, what are ways that we can put them in touch in you, in your example with Abby and her, you know, her interest

in cake and cooking and being a chef. You had a neighbor that was a great mentor that I thought was just brilliant share and then how that was then used to reflect and revise. I think a lot of people will be able to connect to that journey. And it will really make a lot more sense when we talk about learner centered versus maybe more teacher centered models. What does that look like? So when learners interest go beyond what you might have at the table, where do you find and

facilitate that journey to move beyond you? Yeah, I mean, and that really is I don’t cook. I don’t like to cook. I don’t have any interest in it, but I, you know, we need to eat. So I like to surround myself with people who like to cook and Abby, but Abby really is just like motivated and interested in baking. And so you mentioned my neighbor also loves it. So I’ve paired them up. And then just this weekend, we were at a family gathering and Abby whipped up a cocktail sauce

and pulled together some stuff. I was like, how did you do that? And she goes, Oh, I learned it from Martha Stewart. When she was hanging out with my neighbor, they had a Zoom call with Martha Stewart and learned about how to make some of these things. It’s way beyond my expertise, my interest, but providing that’s the exposure. Those are the opportunities to learn from different people. Now she can take that learning and put it into practice in different ways. And our kids can do

the same as well to really learn beyond what the teacher cares about or is interested in. And it really shifts the paradigm to think about what are you interested in as a learner? What do you want to do when what are your gifts and talents kind of can guide you in certain directions? Well, I look forward to sampling something for Abby in the future when I’m down there in the air, you can let her know. I’m excited. But sounds wonderful. Smart move.

In Chapter nine, you share about one of our favorite topics, getting smart, sustainable developmental goals and the play that that has in real world learning and authentic opportunities. Can you do a little plug for that? I felt like that was great because this kind of feeds into that. So you’ve got a lot of interests. There’s a process for you to develop that. And then maybe, how does that become a longer lifelong path to? Yeah, I mean, I think just like we were talking

about that exposure and purpose, these sustainable goals are a really great place to start, I think, when people say, I don’t know what I’m interested in. I don’t I don’t even know where to start. These are 17 goals that are pertinent to our world in communities globally, that there’s a lot of resources people in the real world are tackling these challenges. And so when we can invite kids to learn about the challenges to research to investigate to connect with kids around the world,

it’s a great opportunity to expand their horizons and and help them understand where they can take action. And so I love these goals. And Jennifer Williams has the Global Goals Project that I talk about, where, you know, there’s classrooms all over the world that, you know, you can learn from and teachers can gather some lesson plans and ideas so you don’t have to go at it alone. But it’s it’s a really cool way to to get kids involved and to help them do meaningful work.

The other piece that I share is Ron Berger’s Hierarchy of Audience. And I think that’s a really, really important piece there that sure, you know, when we turn stuff into our teacher, it’s about compliance, it’s about showing up. And the kids who do well in school are fine with that. But, you know, a lot of kids need more, more purpose, they need more more reason to do something. And so doing something that matters to your community to, you know, the global environment can really

increase that motivation and engagement for a lot of our learners and for teachers to. Yeah, very true. And quality work, which Berger like aligns himself to, I know it’s an oldie but goodie, but I love that Austin’s butterfly video that he does with feedback. And I mean, that’s such a good one. Stand the test. And it’s a great, great resource to kind of line up to what you’re sharing too. So when you visit school, I know you get called to visit and help and support

districts and learn collaborative. When you are talking with teachers and site leaders, what are signs that you help them or you yourself look for to see, you know, is this truly lender centered might be a leverageable next step to consider what are some signs that stand out to you when you visit classrooms and schools that could be helpful to our listeners. Yeah, great question. I think at first when you when you can walk into a classroom, it’s an initial energy and

a way that learners are treated. So I listened to how does the teacher talk to students, how do they talk to one another? Are they are they asking questions? Is it inquiry based? Are they trusted and are they treated as humans? Right? Just this simple example at Design 39, one of, you know, our partner schools and I know that you’ve done a lot of work with them as well. A student was like sitting on the edge of a table and he fell off. I mean, this was like a second grader, you know,

they’re clumsy and he fell off. And the teacher said, Are you okay? And a group of people with me, they were like, Oh my gosh, they would have been in the office in our school. Right? That would have been an affront to the teacher that you were messing around and you weren’t sitting still and you would have been sent to the office. And then the child did it again, he fell again. And the teacher said, Are you okay? Do you need to do you need to make a different choice? And you know,

when they talked, the third time and the teacher said, Maybe we need to make a different choice and think about some different options. But this is a way of like helping learners make choices, understanding they’re navigating their world, they’re trying to figure things out. Rather than you’re, you know, they’re being non compliant, you’re not doing what you’re supposed to do, you need to go to the office or you need to get out of this classroom. So that is just how people

are treated is a foundational aspect. And then I look at the work is everything the same? Is everything on the wall just like copy paste that everyone had to fill in the worksheet? Or is there evidence of real inquiry and different ways of approaching problems that learners are having the opportunity to be engaged in? Do the walls reflect the people in the room? Or do the walls reflect the teacher? Those are some things to that shift of if it’s if we are

looking to learn our center, then we are creating a space where everybody is valued and seen in that room. They’re not just visitors into the teacher’s classroom. How do you weigh the short term results into long term impact? I think it was in the hundreds, page 108 or 9. But I think you talk about long term impact and how that can make that. Could you share a little bit more about that? Sure. I think that what I what I want to be clear is it’s not like all or nothing, right? Or it’s

not that we’re just going to get there. That here’s the thing that we’re arriving at. These are shifts that if we’re evolving in education in 10 years and five, we’re going to continually evolve with the resources and tools and the needs. But it’s are we starting to see the engagement increase? Right? I always share Gallup’s engagement curve. And but you know, when we see the engagement dip to about 20, 30% by the time the kids are graduating high school, gosh, imagine if we could

flip that. Imagine if we could start to see kids throughout the day do things that they enjoy, solving problems that matter and having fun. Those are short term wins. But over time you sustain that you start to see that people feel valued, they start wanting to solve more problems, they start seeing themselves as capable and confident and their engagement as they are in school and as they leave continues to expand. So those are some like short term goals that can increase

long term. And so it’s not simply changing everything as an educator. It’s what’s that small tweak that I can make? What is that small change that I can do? Can I ask learners, you know, their opinion? Can I give them a few small choices? Then how does how does that kind of compound into to greater goals as we start to think about, Oh, that worked. I should give them more choices. Oh, they actually showed up and and they were they were engaged and they were really working hard and

they created this awesome, you know, product. How do what are the next steps? I think it just continues to grow from there. And I think the other piece is we have to start looking at a broader view of success. What are we really looking at as success? Are kids showing up more confident? Are they able to look at problems differently? Are they being more critical thinkers and being able to show evidence over time of individuals growing in their skills? And then, you know,

we start to see systems really change too. Do you have future changes or predictions for the road ahead as we start to close this incredible conversation about your new book? What are some predictions that you might see or things that you might project that happen in the future of where this could go? I really think that it’s it’s an opportunity for teachers to come together and to really start understanding how much power and influence they have every day. I think sometimes

we say, I can’t do this because somebody else or, you know, the question I get asked the most is, how do I get others on board? My admin won’t let me do this. You know, our system is too confined and won’t let us do this. And I, you know, George Coro always says like, the biggest barrier is sometimes our own way of thinking. And I do think that if we start realizing how much power and influence each one of us has to shift the system and to show what’s possible and to push against

the status quo, that we can really start doing awesome things for kids. We already are. And it’s just getting getting more comfortable and tipping to that that tipping point of seeing this being the norm rather than the exception. And I think we’re there. I think the pandemic has helped people see a lot of gaping holes in our system. And I think it’s an opportunity for us to really just move to that learner centered paradigm and start seeing seeing our role as helping support,

engage, and expand the possibilities for kids rather than mold them into something that, you know, is the same across the board. Truly learner centered. Wonderful. Katie, thanks for joining us today. We appreciate your emphasis on making the shift to learner centered education and the way you use your personal narrative and powerful stories to communicate that need. That’s it for today’s listeners. Thanks for tuning in. We appreciate your time.