Jenee Henry Wood and David Nitkin on Conversations with Kids

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On this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Shawnee Caruthers is joined by Jenee Henry Wood, a Partner at Transcend Education and David Nitkin, also a Partner at Transcend. 

David and Jenee recently worked on an initiative called Conversations with Kids, a research project and culminating paper that analyzed data from 20,000+ students who participated in Transcend’s Leaps Student Voice Survey and focus groups. Tons of outstanding themes were identified as a result. 

Shawnee Caruthers: You’re listening to the Getting Smart podcast. I’m Shawnee Caruthers, and today I am joined by Jenee Henry Wood, a partner at Transcend Education, and David Nitkin, also a partner at Transcend. David and Jenee recently worked on an initiative called Conversations with Kids, a research project and culminating paper that analyzed data from over 20,000 students who participated in Transcend’s LEAP student voice surveys and focus groups. Tons of outstanding insights were identified as a result, and I cannot wait to talk about it. David and Jenee, thank you so much for being here today.

Jenee Henry Wood: Thank you so much for having us. We’ve had the opportunity to chat with small groups but never such a big podcast audience, so David and I are here to have a blast. Thank you for having us.

David Nitkin: Yeah, thanks for hosting. I also have to say I love listening to the podcast, so I feel like, you know, first time, long time. I’m excited to be on the other side of the mic—it’s a thrill.

Shawnee Caruthers: Well, David, since you said the kind thing, we’ll start with you first! You say something nice, and then you get the reward. But I want to talk about students because this is what this whole thing is all about. You all talked to over 20,000 kids, so you have some great insights that we can’t wait to uncover. But I want to talk about the meaningful moments in a student’s day. Where do students find their school day is most meaningful? Like, directly from the mouths of kids, what are they saying?

David Nitkin: I appreciate that question. For us at Transcend, we’re a national nonprofit supporting communities to redesign the core structures of school to create more equitable and extraordinary experiences for young people. And when we work with communities, the first step is always, “Let’s actually ask young people about what their current experiences are like.” Nobody is more of an expert in a student’s experience than they are, so let’s talk to them about what’s working, what’s not, and how it feels to be a young person in this learning environment. When we talked to over 20,000 young people in the last school year and asked about their experiences, they told us that there are places in their day where they get to make meaningful choices, where things feel highly relevant, and where they can build strong relationships. But often, those places aren’t inside core academics. They’re in extracurriculars, sports teams, electives, or drama. Core academics—like English, math, or science—can often feel more rote or like passive compliance rather than active self-direction. So, typically, when we work with communities to go through that learning experience, it provokes a question about how we create more of those kinds of experiences inside core academics.

Shawnee Caruthers: What does it mean for something to be meaningful for a student? When you’re saying they’re finding it outside the core, what does that look like for them? What are students identifying as meaningful experiences?

David Nitkin: We ask them questions like, “In this part of your day, do you get to learn about things you’re interested in? Do you get to have a say in what happens? Is what you’re learning connected to life outside school?” These questions are essential for two reasons. One, all the science around learning and development tells us that if young people are having experiences that feel relevant, where they’re passionate, and where they get to make meaningful choices, it’s highly predictive of learning outcomes. In our research, students who said they had those experiences were 67% more likely to say they learned a lot in school. But beyond learning outcomes, we believe these experiences are valuable in their own right. Every human deserves meaningful choices about how they spend their time, to be doing something that matters to them. Young people, as human beings, deserve those kinds of experiences, and that’s why we’re so passionate about these conversations with kids.

Jenee Henry Wood: Yeah, and I’ll jump in on that, David, because David gets really excited about what every human deserves—and that is so powerful to me. I think it underlines something unspoken that we should make explicit here: young people deserve to learn in ways that will cultivate the skills they’ll need to engage with the world. School should be a place to practice what the world expects of us. It’s not just about showing up, doing reading, writing, arithmetic, taking a test, and walking out the door. School is a place to practice and reflect: “What was I great at today? What wasn’t I great at? Where do I want to grow?” Conversations with Kids aims to get educators to think more about eliciting young people’s voices and reflecting on their experiences. School should be a profound place for practicing that.

Shawnee Caruthers: I appreciate that. You both mentioned agency and practicing voice. Often, we as adults don’t even know what to do with agency when we have it, and we’re so used to structured systems. You’ve been listening deeply to kids. Jenee, why is it important to listen to kids? We talk about it, we say “student-centered,” and we call for student voice, but then we rarely actually ask students. So why does listening matter?

Jenee Henry Wood: I love this question, Shawnee. To answer it, I’m going to take us back a bit in time because I think it’s relevant. During COVID, we all saw two things happening. On one hand, we saw the brilliance of our school system—educators going out of their way to ensure kids had food, Wi-Fi, and learning materials. They showed incredible heart. But COVID also exposed things that have been broken in our schools for a long time. Parents were able to see what was happening in science class right in their living rooms, and many weren’t impressed. And neither were young people. When we started dreaming about student voice, we knew empathy was key. Empathy starts with the idea that even if I’m not in your shoes, I’m going to sit with you and deeply listen. Often, in conversations about school, the last people we ask for feedback are the students experiencing it. So, when we think about redesigning learning experiences, it’s crucial to start with the actual end user in mind. In COVID’s second year, we saw distressing reports about mental health and educational drops. In designing for change, understanding the experiences of the people going through it is core. Conversations about advancing schooling can’t happen without students at the table.

Shawnee Caruthers: Before I pivot to David, I want to ask an additional question. Since everyone in education understands that student voices matter, why do we rarely bring students to the table or involve them intentionally?

Jenee Henry Wood: That’s a great question. David, feel free to chime in here, but I think there are a few dynamics at play. First, it’s time—practically speaking, educators often don’t have time to listen deeply. Teachers are busy managing classes, lesson plans, emails, attendance, and more. The design of the school day doesn’t lend itself to gathering meaningful student feedback. Second, even if we gather insights, we often don’t have structures in place to act on them. A teacher might know students want physical activity breaks but can’t facilitate that in a highly scheduled day. Third, there may be mindsets—some adults might think, “Kids don’t know what they need; they’re young.” But by and large, people feel in their bones that this matters; it’s just hard to make it happen. David, do you agree?

David Nitkin: Absolutely. Part of the trap of the current school design is that it’s so inefficient. Just keeping the hamster wheel rolling takes so much effort that there’s little time for R&D, or research and development, to step back and rethink things. Education is unlike other sectors in that way. Healthcare, for instance, allocates 20-30% of spending to R&D, while in education, it’s less than a quarter of 1%. Transcend exists partly to provide extra capacity for schools to rethink traditional models and innovate. We created tools like the LEAP student voice survey and Conversations with Kids guide to make it a bit easier, offering extra support so educators don’t have to invent everything themselves.

Shawnee Caruthers: That makes so much sense, and the analogy really helps. I’m curious, David—regarding the LEAP study and the report, what were some key takeaways?

David Nitkin: One key finding was that students’ most meaningful experiences are often outside core academics—in extracurriculars, sports, and electives. Many students said their experiences in school felt irrelevant, offering few opportunities for choice. For example, only 31% said what they learned was connected to life outside the classroom. However, we found that when adults listen to young people, it helps educators feel more motivated to rethink school design. Listening can lead to co-designed experiences that make a real difference. In North Dakota, a community called Northern Cass used our tools to survey and listen to students, and students reported feeling disconnected from core academics. But then the school brought students into the design process, leading them to co-create new “studios” where students could choose what and how they learned. After participating, 100% of those students said they felt engaged and had a say in their learning, which shows how powerful listening can be.

Jenee Henry Wood: That’s amazing, David. There’s another piece that I think we should share. Often, students get the experiences they love in extracurriculars, but data shows that access to these activities is tied to socioeconomic status. Since the 1970s since the 1970s, upper-middle-class students have become more involved in extracurriculars, while participation by lower-income families has decreased. This gap has expanded alongside rising income inequality and is further exacerbated by pay-to-play programs. Schools might say, “We’d love to have you on the team, but we can’t fund it fully, so you need to pay for equipment.” This kind of setup limits access for students from lower-income families, creating inequities in who gets these enriching experiences.

Shawnee Caruthers: Wow, that really highlights the challenges around access and equity. I want to explore that more, but first, I’m interested in the concept of interests in students’ learning. Many educators feel they know their students well, but maybe not well enough to fully enrich their school experience. Is it a matter of asking the right questions or understanding students on a deeper level?

Jenee Henry Wood: I think it’s like any relationship—it deepens over time. If I just met you, Shawnee, I might say, “You have great style!” But someone closer to you might say, “Shawnee is the person I call when I need advice.” There are layers to knowing someone, and we’re not saying teachers need the deepest level of intimacy with students, but we are encouraging educators to keep going, to deepen relationships as much as possible. Starting with a good relationship is great, but continue asking deeper questions and integrate what you learn about students into your teaching. There are real riches that come from taking those extra steps.

David Nitkin: I completely agree. And to build on that, it’s also about the scope of change an educator feels empowered to enact. If a student says, “This traditional model where everyone learns the same thing at the same time doesn’t work for me,” and the educator feels limited in their ability to change that, it creates a challenge. If both teachers and students feel like they’re stuck in a model that’s unchangeable, it can be frustrating. So, listening to students has to go hand-in-hand with a commitment to redesigning school in a way that reflects what we now know about learning, development, and equity.

Jenee Henry Wood: Exactly, and I want to add that it’s not just teachers who should be having these conversations with students. It’s principals, superintendents, and even district leaders. Often, teachers don’t have the power to implement all the changes students need, but if a principal or superintendent is also listening, they can help create a structure that supports those changes. Conversations with Kids is designed for everyone in a school or district, so everyone can use this information in meaningful ways.

Shawnee Caruthers: I love that it’s not just about the students or teachers listening to each other but about creating a community-wide culture of listening. I have one last question, and it’s around equity. I’m sure many equity issues surfaced in these conversations. From the students’ perspective, what do they see as our biggest equity challenge?

David Nitkin: Great question. One thing that stood out was when we asked adults and students similar questions, and adults often overestimated what students would say about feeling engaged or connected. But on questions around social consciousness—like whether students learn about racism or take action on societal issues—adults actually underestimated students. For example, only 27% of adults thought students would agree that “In school, we take action to fix problems in society such as racism and discrimination,” while 50% of students agreed. So, students are clearly passionate about these issues, regardless of race or ethnicity. They’re telling us, “We’re talking about this, whether or not adults think we should.”

Shawnee Caruthers: That gives me hope. This generation seems ready to take charge, to fix things, and to embrace inclusivity. It’s wonderful to hear that from the data. Thank you both, Jenee and David, for sharing your insights and for this enlightening conversation about Conversations with Kids. It’s so critical, and I hope this inspires more people to listen to students and engage with them on a deeper level. Thank you for joining me today.

David Nitkin: Thank you! And can I add one more thing? Part of our mission is to make these tools available to as many communities as possible. If anything you heard makes you think, “I’d like to use this conversation guide or survey,” check the show notes—we’ll include information on how you can access these tools. We want to support more educators and community members in having these conversations.

Shawnee Caruthers: Perfect ending. Thank you both so much.

Links

• Conversations with Kids Initiative
• Survey Tool
• Conversation Guide
• Jenee Henry Wood LinkedIn
• David Nitkin LinkedIn
• Northern Cass School District
• Transcend Education