Future of Learning Council on Statewide Grassroots Strategies & Pathways

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Backslash, New Pathways. You’re listening to the Getty Smart podcast. I’m Shani Carruthers. Today, I’m joined by Dr. Dave Richards, the executive learning strategist for Michigan Virtual, and a key part of Future of Learning Council, a partner that we love working alongside this last year. We’re also joined by two superintendents who are part of this project,

Dr. Christopher Timmis, superintendent of Dexter Community Schools, and Dr. John Ben Wagoner of Traverse City Area Public Schools. Thank you all so much for being here. Thank you. Yeah, so we’re, I know we have a lot of people, so we’re going to like do our best to keep everything straight,

but I’m so excited to talk to you all just from the conversations we’ve already had. You all are so fun, and I’m really excited for our listeners to hear what you have to say. But Dave, I’m going to start with you. Let’s do some foundation setting. What is the Future of Learning Council and how did you get associated with it? Well, the council really started John and Chris and I, along with two or three other superintendents,

started meeting in 2017. And at the time I was a sitting superintendent as well. And we really wanted to get together with like-minded leaders who were really pushing towards kind of a competency-based environment, but really innovative, and shared best practices. And we traveled around for probably a year and a half to each other’s districts.

And as Chris always says, it was really who could ever buy lunch is who got the host. But it really built a grassroots mindset around not waiting for somebody else to come in and help us define what learning is going to look like going forward. And so obviously then the pandemic hit a lot of that work slowed down because everyone was just trying to deal with health and safety issues. And then coming out of the pandemic, Michigan Virtual as an organization really came along beside us and gave us a home to be able to host and hold all of our meetings. And at that time as a group, we decided, let’s relaunch this effort because it was so much bigger than just talking about competency-based.

There were so many other aspects about learning that we needed to dig into that we decided to rebrand it and relaunch it as the Future of Learning Council. Fortunately, since October of last year, 2021, until now, we have grown to just about 40 school districts and ISDs that are part of this effort in the state of Michigan. And Chris serves as the president of the group and John serves as the vice president of the group. And we’re excited about the work that we’ve been doing, not only with getting smart, but across the state to raise awareness around how do we intentionally redesign learning to meet the needs of kids in a post-pandemic environment.

Yeah, when we think about districts and schools, so often we think like, okay, the football teams are playing against each other and the debate teams are going head-to-head, but you all are truly collaborative. And so Dave, how did you go about getting all of the superintendents or the stakeholders in the space to truly collaborate to work on this really important goal for students? Well, we’re fortunate that the superintendents that we do have involved are really people that others look to for insight on, hey, how are you solving problems? What are some of the things that you’re doing? I retired in 18 as a superintendent and then really started doing a lot of this work on the side and keeping kind of the glue of it together.

But it’s been word of mouth where people are like, hey, I hear you guys are having a lot of great conversations. We’ve presented at a couple of statewide conferences and people have come in asking, how do I become a part of this work? So I think everyone’s passed that, that why conversation and they’re into the how and the what of saying, what do we need to do coming out of this pandemic? And we know we need to create new models, but maybe we can solve some of these problems together. Yeah, and you also mentioned just the shift from moving toward just thinking about competency, which is a really great place for people to start when they think about maybe wanting to move a district in a different way,

but then shifting to a more broader goal, which is what the Future of Learning Council is all about. So how has education been reframed for Michigan students and educators as a result of that pivot? Well, I think the big shift and I’d love to hear John and Chris’s thoughts on this. I think the big shift has been really looking at instructional design and really concentrating on addressing learning rather than the structure of school, especially since we’ve been dealing with so much of the pandemic and the threat against the system.

I think a lot of our leaders are really understanding that if we focus on the learning and design for learning, the structure of school will follow that. And so John and Chris, what are your thoughts on that particular part of it? All right, so what I see, as far as the there is a sense of urgency now for districts and schools to change, there was a longing to go back to a pre pandemic model, but even pre pandemic, we were all talking about how the system was never designed to serve all kids and how do we create a system that does. And that conversation and that realization is truly accelerated through the pandemic.

And as we move out, no one, we can’t go back to what the system was. We all know that it’s impossible. The environment they were in is completely different in kids. Their experiences have been different in parents and our staff. So we know we have to create a new some new models.

We also saw that some kids did really well in the versions of school that we were just making up ad hoc. Some kids really struggled. And we saw different kids that struggled who had done well in the old system and different kids who did who really struggled in the old system start to find their groove and find success. So we all know that sense of urgency came up and leaders across the entire country. And when I talk to leaders around the world, we all know we need to do something different.

So this is a group that’s helping to look at how we can do it different. Yeah, John, I’ll let you add to this. But as you talk about just this notion of doing things different, I also want you to touch on the amazing like mobilization work that really you have to kind of really lean into to truly make this a reality. Well, I think, you know, first and foremost is is having some networks to reach out to see who are the people that are doing this work nationally who, you know, one of the things that’s important to a lot of my people in the in our district is can I maybe even go there and go and see what they’re doing, especially, you know, pre pandemic, but as we’re coming, you know, to a normalcy of whatever, you know, like the COVID normalcy is getting an idea of what does that look like talking with teachers that are just like our teachers.

And administrators just like our administrators so they get a sense of, okay, if they can do it, we can do that. And, you know, reaching out to experts, such as Tom Van Der Rack, you know, from getting smart and others across the nation to say, Hey, who should we go see who’s talking to you the same way we’re talking and really building that network. That’s what we’ve done. And so this past year, we had the opportunity to bring in different national experts, people that have been doing this work can tell you the strengths that they’ve had. The great, you know, challenges that have come with the work still, the unknown still are unresolved that they’re still working on and looking to colleagues that they can work with to help them still as they’re moving along to continue on the work. So really that that’s been a big effort is to go literally around the state members of our, our council have and, and to try and seek out these people have conversations and try and bring that back to our state for people either going to the visitals or bring those people in to be able to sit down with groups of our school district leaders and and talk about and learn from and see what we can do to really move the needle. Yeah, and Chris, John was just talking about the best practice sites and just kind of fighting against this normalcy right how we don’t want things to go back but you also don’t want to settle into like normal anymore because you all, as you’ve said, want to continue to push the needle and you do this through all of the different types of professional development that you are doing like you also approach to it.

So what is that approach. Can you talk more about your professional learning network. Yeah, so it’s been fascinating so we talk a lot amongst individual leaders on how we want to allow a level of student agency and how we want to have a clear, a clear outcome, but then maybe the path is not dictated from the start. And really how we’ve evolved looks a lot like that. So what we know is we want to be able to help leaders in local this school districts and ISD’s around the state of Michigan do a statewide lift and really change education for kids in Michigan. And what we’ve done is we brought people together and we kind of navigated along the way and said, Well, this is what we would like to do. You’re welcome to join with us and they asked what’s the plan we’re like well that’s what we want to do. So we’re going to keep working towards the plan. And then we asked what they want to learn about. And we went through a whole list and we started this year we we talked a little bit.

We started going down the road of micro schools and then we started talking about some of the foundational like profile of a graduate and how you create learning continuums etc. And then we really zeroed in and did a deep dive on instructional frameworks and how you take from a profile of a graduate and create an instructional framework. And what we did is we had we started with superintendents and then they started going can we bring our teams. So then we let them bring in their teams so they were bringing principles and teachers and central office administrators and it became an entire team learning together, all in different places throughout the room and throughout the state. And we’ve kind of doing this learn as you go but we know that the the final product is we want to create a new system for Michigan kids somehow. And we’re all kind of growing together and it’s really been that team building model we’ve done on these individual teams it’s been pretty fascinating. I think a big part of that to Shawnee has been talking with the leaders about capacity in their own staff, so that things don’t get lost in translation when they go back to their districts. And, and fortunately, the leaders who have joined are not only interested in eager, even though everyone is at a different place, they understand the the importance of developing a shared vision amongst their teams.

And that’s where we have a lot of hope that if we can do that vision on a statewide level, we have a greater opportunity to impact more kids and that every child has the opportunity to benefit from it across the state of Michigan. So let’s take it let’s talk about this invitational approach for a second and capacity, because you all kept it very invitational it wasn’t like this is what Michigan is doing everybody has to be a part of it right and so that was really useful and getting that by and and then Dave you just mentioned the capacity building is important and then Chris you also talked about how the superintendents were saying, Oh, this is great. Let me bring my own team. How, how does that really happen though because lots of superintendents have this thought right that this is great. I want to be a part of something innovative. I want to bring my team along. But what happens when the capacity isn’t there like everyone’s so overwhelmed. Everyone’s so busy. How do you truly get those extra people at the table.

When you have all of these challenges that the issue. Well, I could tell you one thing that really worked was providing providing a deep learning experience that people didn’t want to opt out of they want to be part of so we we connected with some real great thought leaders around the country, had them facilitate some deep conversations at one point we connected with getting smart and really brought a shout out to Rebecca Middles. I mean the work she did. We said we wanted to do this. We then started pulling more in and they kept going can we do another one and focus on this part and we purposefully designed those sessions so that any district wherever they were at their team could make progress. Was that your experience as well John was that your your your insight. Yeah, I mean definitely having you know those experts come in you know was powerful and and people were really engaged you know to a point that I haven’t seen in quite a while and and you know I guess that coming out of the pandemic for sure that there was a hunger if you will for that.

But even beyond that you know we just unfortunately a lot of different reasons and resources. You know we are we don’t get a lot of those opportunities that people from especially national either think tanks or leaders from other schools. We don’t get to come into our state very often we just we haven’t been fortunate to have some of the large funders that you know do a large grants or or to win many of the national you know federal grants to you know race to the top whatever those things were you know grants and so this was an opportunity for us to really bring some of the best of the best and and I think our people really responded with intriguing wonder and want to you know be recognized as the people that are are trying to move education for the better for all of our kids here in Michigan. And I really think that a big part of it was we were using terms like mobility and flexibility to design rather than talking about seat time and how we’re going to fit the model you know and get learning to cram it back into that box.

And you know society we’ve said this a lot society has a very different ask especially coming out of the pandemic. They have seen parents especially have seen that we can create flexible learning environments. They don’t want to go back to just a traditional setting necessarily they want to be able to pick and choose and that’s where the pathways the micro schools. All of these other things that kids are going you know student engagement is a huge piece of how do you design forward for student engagement and create experiences for kids. One of the things you just mentioned in that flexibility was micro schools.

Chris and John I’m wondering what is can you tell us a bit about your approach to micro schools. Yeah I can talk about that. I think that we’ve learned a lot over the past I’d say five years about when we create flexible learning environments not to not to create something to create just another box that students have to live in but how can we really create flexibility. I think one of the things we’ve learned in watching a lot of other districts that have been successful in those that maybe a struggle is making sure that we don’t talk about maybe the traditional way is wrong or bad but offering different options that work for kids. You know there are some kids that the traditional model we have worked for definitely not all and not sure about how many.

But we do know that there are many other modes of learning that kids do learn and and enjoy and are engaged more in whether that be project based learning whether that be some type of involved in career tech ed. It could be that college prep track that I talked about there’s lots of different ways and so how can we create different ways and different models for students to have. And can we look at really start to look at pathways and what they’re maybe they’re they’re wondering about for a career and try and make some real relevant offerings and and making it to where they they see a pathway for them maybe for a career in the future. So how can we look at those passions and things they have to have a track for them to do that it just kind of reminds me of a colleague that we had early on in this work made the statement that you know if you have three kids. And one scores a perfect S.A.T. or a C.T. another student is a great dancer and gets a automatic entry into Juilliard school.

And then if you have a welder that just does an unbelievable welding project and takes first place in a in a regional art prize competition to ask your question which kid is smarter. And really it’s it’s a false question. You know they’re all smart. They’re all very talented but can you create a pathway for each one of those kids for them to be able to take in those passions. Put it towards what we need to have them know from the content standpoint. But how can we connect that to those relevant opportunities. So here in Traverse City that’s really right now what we’re trying to look at is can we create those pathways and embed some of those other content things cross curricular so that they have that within that passion area they want to work on and have that move forward to whatever their post secondary opportunities are. So speaking of micro schools and then John kind of led into pathways a lot of the work we’ve been doing in Dexter over the years has been supported by the FLC work is just navigating how how you would start something that was very different for kids and get enough students to get it off the ground and support.

We’ve been going down pathways we’re still we’re just starting to finally get to the high school level but we’ve been going down this road of basically three different pathways but two are pretty well developed now and one more that’s taken shape and they’re they’re really interesting metaphors so like our current model of school we just say it’s a racetrack metaphor. It’s be like everyone else just better. So that’s our current model and then we’ve been doing we’re part of summit learning and we we say it’s more like a model train that you help every student lead a fulfilled life you give some individualization is a choice. And then we started and this has been fascinating so we brought Michael Horn in for to come talk with the group and he talked about these research and development groups and we did that in Dexter and created what we call spark which we joke we call it the road trip that enjoy the road trip. Everyone has something valuable to add to society and then our collective potential lies in nurturing or individuality so the journey just you know where you need to get or you might want to get and you just embrace the road trip. And that’s kind of what we’ve been doing with the FLC work is embracing the road trip and allowing every group or every district to kind of figure out where their road trip starting and start to picture where they want to end.

Chris you mentioned a fulfilled life and this can be for anyone David John for the answer but how do you help students define what that is because like pathways it’s so different for everyone. How do you get to that definition. I’m going to defer to Dave. Well first and foremost I think the the biggest challenge is knowing the students at a deeper level. You know getting them actively engaged and everyone talks about agency Shawnee.

A lot of people like to throw it around. But until you really get to the place where kids have a voice and they’re learning and they understand where their strengths are where the weaknesses are as Chris mentioned John talked about passions. It’s really difficult to try to design and personalize learning without using that that term in the wrong way. And so I think getting to the place where kids understand what they know what they want to learn about what they’re passionate about. I think Cajon Valley is a great example out in San Diego where by the time a child goes from kindergarten to eighth grade I think they experienced 52 different careers and have a chance to sample a lot of different

experiences along that way. That’s a great way to get to know the kid and have the kid get to know themselves that self awareness and then obviously having the opportunity once they do discover do we have the opportunities to allow them to fulfill some of their passions and learning. Yeah, we were looking at and the really the pandemic changed our work on this but we started thinking about during the beginning of the pandemic. Todd Rose wrote that book Dark Horse and in his book he talks about micro motives and when you want to find out for kids passions you just trying to help them understand their micro motives. We spent some work with adults trying to figure out what our micro motives are.

Why do we enjoy and feel fulfilled in certain aspects of our lives and why do we not enjoy others. So how to flush that out still work in progress. I’d love to see a really flushed out model but just figuring out what it is about activities and about career interest or just life in general that really are the things for individual kids and adults that they truly that’s what they enjoy it. John, I really want to unpack it just a little bit more on how you build them. We’ve heard some great clues about getting to know the students on a deeper level.

Make sure that they’re sampling experiences. They gave us a great example. Chris was just talking about understanding the micro motives, but how else how do we how do we build pathways in a very intentional way that not only do students understand them, but both the parents and the community also finds value in what you all are trying to do for students. I think definitely, you know, the more opportunities like alcohol and others that you do that internship and and just job experience, job shadowing those kind of things are great. And you know, and sometimes honestly it takes time for kids to maybe figure that out.

So one of the things that we feel really strongly about is that we don’t lock a kid into a pathway that they they very well may we while we have them. It’s really important that we have kids to be able to cross in between and over them if they have a passion area in another and we’ve had a lot of talk about that that we want to be careful not to, you know, quote unquote track kids. We really want to make sure that they have those opportunities in another area just because maybe they’re a great musician doesn’t mean they also want to be in robotics. And what we’ve learned is they also have friend groups that are across those different curricular areas as well. So to say, sorry, you only have to stay in the quote unquote B wing of the school, and only with, you know, the, the kids that are in our visual arts program.

Many kids really fight back on that idea. They’re like, no, I can do this and have friends that I see over here too. And I have this other passion outside of that passion. And I don’t want to be penciled, you know, or penciled into it or, or, you know, created into a widget if you will. So really trying to make sure that you have that broad experience across because they have that many kids love about school, but also letting kids drill deeper into an area that they want to or areas. I mean, we’ve talked about that pathway doesn’t mean one necessarily.

You know, how, you know, how is it that maybe we have a, you know, a component of competency based learning where they’re doing something over here, you know, in that way, but maybe they’re in a traditional class over here that they like and so, you know, I think that giving kids just opportunities to experience things on a real level versus, you know, here’s a small pamphlet, you know, that talks about becoming a welder. You know, I think it’s getting out there and actually seeing what welders do, what kind of money they make or, you know, and the different types, you know, if you want to be a marine welder first kids that really like water, like we tend to hear in Trevor City being right on the Great Lakes. You know, we have kids that oh, I never knew that it meant that I could be a scuba diver as well as, you know, I’m doing underwater welding and making a six figure income. They may think of only that as an assembly line that we tend to see and maybe a, you know, old dirty environment like we see in these pictures from the industrial revolution and it’s far from that. And so finding ways to just create those relevant opportunities for kids continuing then and not, you know, keeping them in a tracked way I think is a really, really important part to this work that we can’t lose sight of, because if we do, there, you know, we may have a kid lose interest and then where are they at?

Yeah, it’s apparent that the community is apparent that the community involvement is necessary. I know another necessary component is I’m sure like supporting guidance really working with the adults in the building or outside of the building or in the out of school spaces that really provide like great resources and support for their students as they navigate. How do you all handle that or how do you all build those supports into your pathways so that students know who they can go to or who they can reach out to if they’re struggling or ask questions to etc. Yeah, we have a pretty strong mentoring program we’ve been putting in place where the students have one on one time with a mentor. We’ve developed it the we do use the system of graduation coaches and success coaches that we’re still flushing out on what that would look like at the secondary with pathways. But there are lots of examples out there and I think there none of them are quite perfect.

But there’s a lot of ways to do it part of it part of the challenge for schools and this is where the future learning council conversations really make sense is how do you approach school different kind of like the healthcare field had to where I mean we have teachers and we have paraprofessionals of your principles. How do you create other types of roles and relationships within the school staffing structure to support whatever the new models need to look like. And Dave in the during the future of council learning council professional development how do you how do you touch on that how do you build that community with that group to let it. I think one of the big things that we’ve tried to do all the way through is really talk about communication. How do you tell this story. And we will actually try to role play a little bit with the leaders and say OK what’s perception going to be right. Everyone’s perception is their reality until you show them evidence that maybe something is a little bit different.

Getting that relationship piece first and foremost out especially with classroom teachers. They have so much more relationship and trust with parents than I would as a superintendent. So do the teachers understand it. What are they saying about what the initiative is what we’re trying to do and can they articulate it not only to the kids but also to to the parents that they may come into contact with. So the shared vision is a big one communicating it. How are you telling your story. How are you staying on message about the importance and the opportunity for every child. And then I think the other piece that’s really powerful that we’re seeing even with our districts is allowing people to opt in power of choice when they’re not being forced into a model but they can choose. Is this the right fit for my kid. Then all of a sudden I think their perception as a parent is you really do care about my kid. You really are trying to create an opportunity for my child.

That means you know my child. OK I’m on board. Yeah. And then the sense of community I think really grows as well and not feeling like you have to do it. K 12 right off the bat. And that’s where the pathways in the micro schools I think are going to get a lot of traction in the next 12 to 18 months. Yeah absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. John we’ve talked a lot about agency and opting in not only for parents and students but for superintendents and other leaders within the FLC. As you think about the FLC and the Future of Learning Council how has this organization helped you grow your practice and leadership because you decided to opt in to this. So how have you been affected. You know really important because I am an interesting kind of part of the state of Michigan that I’m in a relatively rural area. I’m in northern Michigan.

When I kind of started out this venture I was in another district I was in El Pina which is still up in northern Michigan but on the east coast of northern Michigan Manly Kearon. And then now I’m in that was a district of 3800 which is the second largest district in northern Michigan. But now I’m in Trevor City which is the largest of over 9000 students. 275 square miles in northern Michigan on the northwest side. And so looking for a district that’s any near our size neither neither district I was at I was two and a half to three hours away from anybody that had any remote understanding of the realities that I go through and not and that’s not any kind of kind of sitting in a small district they have all their own different uniqueness and challenges and wearing many hats and hard jobs as well.

But this gave me an opportunity to meet with superintendents and districts like mine or at least challenges and things that was like my thinking. So when I talked about competency based education they knew what I was talking about. I talked about project based learning like oh yeah we’ve experienced that we have a school that’s doing this or that. And so it gave you know the chance for a group of colleagues to be able to sit down in a safe space because the reality is you know it’s more dangerous to be an innovative superintendent than it is to just be a part of the status quo. Just a reality of you know it’s hard enough of targeting on your back in this job of the two to three year lifespan that many of us you know last.

But to have some colleagues that are there and thinking and wanting to do the same as you sometimes that’s a real help when you sit talk to your board about oh you know let’s talk about a visitor or when Dave was at Frazier or Celine or were any of Barian Springs wherever any of our partners have been at to be able to say I’m not the only one I’m not you know alone in this venture and what we think was really really powerful and really needed because they do think having some support they say you know a presentation a long time ago at our Superintendents conference here is welcome to the Superintendency population of one. Yeah. And that’s the way you feel you’re there’s nobody in your district that understands what you’re thinking or trying to do so having that like group like minded Superintendents and first line administrators to be able to talk to every month and bounce those ideas has been huge for me really you know since we started at this and really started it solely for that purpose in the first place. What about you Chris.

Yeah so for myself it’s been a great opportunity to bring our team along. We’ve seen through the through the pandemic we saw a number of retirements. So we’ve had new members of our teams coming in. It’s been an opportunity to pick brains from around the state and around the country. The nice thing is for personal growth. I’ve this is year 15 is a superintendent. I let a pretty high poverty district in the back in the race to the top era with funds and then and was able to do some things pretty radical and fast because we had no choice. And now I’m in a pretty affluent district and trying to make that jump from good to great. And we are it’s taken me over the years to adjust my my leadership style. And in the last year I can say that I learned a lot and I’ve started this year completely different than in the past and from things I’ve learned and that’s what we want from our leaders want to build capacity and them as individuals and within their teams and our team has more capacity so I got to do things a little different.

Yeah and Dave we’re not letting you off the hook here even though you are a retired superintendent you’re still working right alongside them in the trenches during the hard work. So how have you been able to truly provide the support needed to to continue to push education forward in Michigan. Well first I would just say my personal drive personal mission has been knowing what they’re going through each and every day especially with the pandemic. It’s really been how can I help and how can I help support the work that they’re doing. And if it’s you know handling administrative tasks for this group to keep it going or if it’s being a thought partner with them. That’s been number one because I know the work that they’re trying to do is to really get every child into a position to be successful. So it’s very mission driven you know for me and then I really have a heart for the state I mean we we joke that we’re kind of a flyover state not a lot of people stop in Michigan that are doing the national conversations.

We want to change that we want Michigan to be a destination for all things learning and innovation. And so how do we get the best thinkers in the room and the people that are doers of the work and then build capacity and whatever I can do to help with that is really been the goal. Well I appreciate having the best three best thinkers in the room with me today. Thank you all for joining us on the Getting Smart podcast and I really appreciate the way that you are really living to the mission of the future of Learning Council which is every child every day. And thank you for sharing how you all are making that a priority. Thank you. Thanks for the time.

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