Dr. Kim Alexander and Alton Frailey on Rural Innovation

You’re listening to the Getting Smart podcast. I’m Nate McLennan and I’m so excited to have Kim Alexander and Alton Fraley from Collegiate Edunation join us today. Kim is the CEO of Collegiate Edunation or CEN has spent most of his career at Roscoe Independent School District in Texas, a small rural district where he served as superintendent from 2003 to 2019 before transitioning to lead CEN. Kim has done so much in Roscoe and in rural

Texas to promote early college and STEM to support disadvantaged rural students. Alton has been in the education world for 35 years serving as superintendent for two districts in Texas and one in Ohio. Alton is involved on numerous boards and community organizations both locally and nationally and he is currently president of Alton, Al Fraley Associates and specializing in leadership development, community engagement, school board team building and

executive coaching. I am super excited to learn more about rural, more about innovation in Texas schools and across the country and more about CEN. So Kim and Alton welcome to the Getting Smart podcast. Thank you. Good to be here. So I’d like to start with just education in general and so maybe Alton first and then Kim just to get to know you a little bit is why are you in education and what was your most memorable learning experience?

My role in education has been, my interest really has been because it really changed the trajectory of my life. I grew up in a small rural community, very, very, very, very poor, big family and education truly is the reason why you talked with me today. It changed my whole outlook on things and so I want to return that same hope and aspiration to other children by being a teacher and being at the school administration to try and really help

have a bigger impact on folks. And my big memory is I had a teacher who several actually really reached out to me and did some special things that made me feel capable and just really helped kind of build my own sense of self-efficacy. I love that idea of purpose and agency and self-efficacy. It seems it’s so important and so elusive in schools. So I’m excited to see CEN really working in that area. So thanks Alton. Kim, what about you? Well, I appreciate the

opportunity to be here. For me, you know, our children are our future and we have an obligation to leave this place in a better position than we found it. And education, as Alton mentioned, unlocks doors and, you know, a lot of generational poverty here in Texas and especially in rural sectors and we know that education is the way out and it opens so many doors and it’s just kind of like Alton mentioned, it’s a way to give

back. You know, I’ve been really blessed in my career and in my life and feel obligation, you know, to these students. The biggest tragedy would be wasted human capital. And that’s our greatest asset. My most memorable learning experience, and I’ve had a bunch of them, so I’ll just think of the most recent one, when we decided to take the P-TECH designation and support disadvantaged students through bachelor and graduate degrees, keeping them

in our system much like a high school system. And we didn’t know how that was going to go and of our first cohort of seven students to finish West Texas A&M, they graduated in May to a Merley, average age 20, student debt zero and a higher average GPA than the average WT graduate. And then one of those, Veronica Quaylor, is now one of our engineering instructors here at Roscoe Collegiate ISD. And then on a little bit different angle, Martin Luna

was the 2020 valedictorian of Roscoe Collegiate and he went through the Texas Tech Grow Your Own program and he’s now a math teacher here at Roscoe Collegiate, but he’s just 19 years old and he’s got his teaching certification and so we’ve just seen how education can change lives. We think we’re on to something that can really help Texas in the U.S. Kim, that gave me chills just thinking about, as you know, I have a passion for rural ed

as well and just this idea of building pipelines back into the community, right? So we avoid the brain drain and we avoid everybody the exes out and the fact that you have some two of your alum already are coming back to contribute back not only to the community, but to the school district itself is just such a powerful story. So thanks for sharing. So thinking about rural, Kim, both of you have been, Kim and Alton, both of you have been in rural, but

Kim, when you think about all your time in Roscoe, you’ve talked to I’m sure suburban and urban leaders, school leaders, we know that 50% of school districts are designated as rural. I think about 20% of students in the country are enrolled in rural schools. What’s the big differentiator between rural and suburban and urban? So many times, that’s a great question. So many times, you know, in rural sectors there

will be minimal resources and minimal resources lead to lower expectations and we know as we have lower expectations, we have lower outcomes, you know, and in Texas, the most recent cohort of rural graduates in Texas to earn any kind of post-secondary credential six years after graduation is only 13%. So we’ve got record high graduation rates, good grades and good test scores, but because of that disconnect after high school, they’re

not being successful. And so that’s the, you know, the downside as we know that 99% of the jobs created since 2008 require post-secondary credential. The upside though is equal in importance. We all know the three Rs, the rigor, the relevance and the relationships. And I would argue that of those three, which are all important relationships is by far the most important. And in the smaller the setting, the easier it is to have close relationships

with people. And so there are advantages and disadvantages and those are just some of them. But the saying is the smaller the ship, the easier it is to turn. So it’s easier to build models for innovation in rural sectors where you don’t have quite as much bureaucracy to wade through or really just don’t even care. You just do what you need to do. Right, right. The advantage, I’d really like what you said about the building of relationships.

We know that’s key. Research has shown that over and over again. And it seems like the little known fact about rural that a lot of others have not realized is that high school graduation rates are pretty good. The problem is that the door doesn’t open after that. And you get burdened with debt when they try to go to college. So I’m really so interested in CEN and how it’s tackling that issue. What about Texas? You have played in a lot of different

districts. You are consulting and working with boards. You’re involved in communities and foundations and all sorts of things. What’s unique about Texas that’s allowing CEN to emerge as a solution? Knowing that we want, I think ultimately CEN is interested in a larger expansion, but Texas is the birth area. So what’s happening in the landscape down there? Well, a lot of folks have this image of Texas as just being a bunch of rural, loud, talking

ragadoshes, cowboards and whatnot. And we have all of that. But we also have a very, very talented population here as well. And in a very general sense, we have this great Texas independence spirit. And with that, we have the risk-taking behavior that’s in our culture from the early days of farming and when you had to dry on the weather and then you may have your whole crop wash out. But resilience is in the culture because you come right back

the next season and you plan again. And then we talk about oil and gas with the wildcatters, you know, drilling holes all over the place, hoping to hit that gusher so to speak. So we’ve always had this culture in Texas of risk-taking, of innovation, not as backwater as folks like to kind of address to be. We really are a very, and I say this without the political connotation, a progressive state in terms of we will try different things. So there’s, and when you talk

about educators, I have worked with superintendents all over the country, there are some great ones out there. But there are so many talented educators in Texas that it is, there’s a great receptivity to innovation and trying things differently. And so I think that Kim has tapped into something here because we have our rural roots, our values. We also know that there are some challenges in our rural communities in terms of as Kim said earlier about resources and support

systems and things like that. And so our educators in Texas understand this and they’re very receptive and willing to try whatever it takes to help our children succeed. And it seems that Kim, you’ve been able to tap into also some legislative actions and resources that have given a little bit more freedom in terms of allocations for districts. Talk a little bit about that in the landscape there. Yeah, they, you know, I’ve been closely associated with TASA and AASA for a number

of years. And so kind of got to know the inside scoop, the politics of a lot of situations. And so, you know, just the relationships that we’ve been able to develop and then develop in the model here in Roscoe has gotten some attention. Senator Seliger from Amarillo told me back in 2012 that it’s easier to shape policy and past legislation on existing models than on theories that might work. And so we’ve had a lot of political support to go

ahead and ramp up and build, you know, this model that now we’re trying to share not only successes but lessons learned. And I’ve made a lot more mistakes and I’ve made good calls and helped other folks avoid some of those landmines that we’ve stepped on during the process of innovation. Right, it seems that looking over your website and our conversations in the past, Kim, is that you are an eager share of lessons learned. And I think that’s so important. There’s no hubris

involved here and we all are learning and as people watch CEN, I think they will benefit from seeing what you learn and then try things in their own districts as well. So, okay, so let’s talk about CEN specifically. Kim, describe to us the model. It’s a complex model that is comprehensive. I love the idea that rural is plural. Every kid matters. And why is it an equity play? Why is that important in the center of the model? Well, you know, Roscoe, like a lot of rural communities, not only in Texas,

but even in the US, has had a declining social capital since the suburban movement began back in the 1950s and your best and brightest leave never to return again. And so you end up with a depleted social capital and what they call rural brain drain and all those things that we’re trying to reverse with this model. And, you know, it really started in 20 years ago when I was the high school principal. And of course, I’d had a background in coaching during the 80s and 90s.

And it was all about winning. And then when I got in that role, I tried to figure out, well, what is winning if you’re the high school principal? And back that time, I believed, well, there’s this thing called the standardized test and the Texas accountability system. And so we were very good at teaching to a multiple choice test and had students, regardless of their background, good grades and good test scores. But as we looked at our disadvantaged students,

walking across that graduation stage was like walking off a cliff for most of them. The best part of their life was now over. And so learned right then that, you know, this may look like we’re winning, but we’re not winning because all students are not being successful. And so that led to a research study that Texas A&M designed in 06 that helped us realize that there’s a better approach to education. That’s also the time that the TASA School Transformation

Network was starting in the visioning document. And how would we design school if we could redesign it and, you know, create a better opportunity for all students in a sense the current model, you know, was designed by the haves for the haves. And so we’re all about equity. And that’s what led us to becoming a school-wide early college and then a STEM Academy that later became P-TECH in 2017 and this model. And the Texas Public Accountability Consortium is the primary work of the High

Performance School Consortium. And, you know, the theme of that work is to whom should schools be accountable and to what? To the state for multiple choice test scores or to parents and their children for successful lives. And we feel like children coming out of poverty that have earned college degrees and meaningful workforce certifications and can do the research. That’s the lifetime learning component. We know that they’re set up to be successful in life.

So Alton, thinking about innovation, do you see this, again, you’ve seen so many systems and work with so many leaders. Is this a radical shift that’s happening at CEN for school models or is this a natural progression from what’s happened before? And both of those things are important. They’re not one way is not better than the other. But where do you see it in the landscape of school innovation? Well, it’s kind of both. It’s kind of radical in one sense in that we’re truly

putting the all and all children with this. And not only that, Kimberly points out that the future of our society is going to be impacted heavily by how well we do with our rural kids. We should look at the urban environment, which is important as well. But in Texas, majority of our kids live in rural communities. We really, really do. And so there’s a lot of potential there to be tapped and cultivated. And what I call have facilitated invitations

to the table to increase their social capital. The innovation, I think, is what Kim is working to create the partnerships and the focus and in the sense, the whole wraparound process of children. And really kind of honing in and getting very, very focused there. You talked about equity there and again, what we’re trying to do here is look at total social and civic ecosystem and help the communities all see how important this is for them. And so equity is from an investment

in what the child needs. When you go to the doctor, you hope he gives you what you need and not what the last patient got. And so we’re looking at really trying to personalize and customize it. And a concept that I hope goes out of this is helping each child because children, they have to take ownership as well. You need to help each child create what I call a personal vision plan. And as Steve Jobs once said, once you have a vision of something you want to try,

that’s really important to you. The vision pulls you, the one has to push you. And so the kids must have their own ownership of this work. And we must also provide a support system so that when they do waver a little bit, they don’t fall apart before someone catches them. Right. You said so many things there that were really important. This idea of facilitated invitations and how do we build social capital and this idea of social and civic ecosystems.

As Kim knows, I am a big fan of place-based education and how do we connect young people into their communities so they understand how they work and not only that, but how do they then make a difference after they get their degree and come back like Kim alluded to in the very first part. And this idea of personal vision and how do we help young people actually create a personal vision and then a path that actually works to get them to that vision. So Kim, when you think

about that and that description, I have two questions. One is how prescriptive is the model? So I know that there’s these parts. So you have a college going part, you have a career experience or a work-based learning part, and you have these community connections. At what level of prescription do you think about scale? What level of prescription needs to happen at the district’s end of your network? And then how big would you like to scale?

Those are good questions. And we’ve learned through trial and error that it’s a very prescriptive model that starts at age three because we can’t get them at three months. And we know that I’ve heard estimates that children from disadvantaged backgrounds have heard as many as 400 million fewer words by age four. And so that kind of helps us better understand the literacy component. So we’ve got to do things to cause students to take ownership of their learning at a very early age,

and that’s how we got into experimenting with Montessori, early childhood and elementary and blended learning and things like that. And with a real focus on getting all students ready. You know, in the old models, since we have to, like Dawson said, we have to double down on disadvantaged students to get them the color in the right bubbles. What we’ve seen is a pattern in school where they come to us all creative. And then by seventh grade, we just about got all the creativity

snuffed out of them and the disadvantaged students hate school. So a model to really redesign school where and create a love for learning and an opportunity. So we have the school wide avid program that’s one of many college readiness programs that covers the soft skills, the Harvard instructional rounds to assess the level of engagement and high cognition activities, the teacher observations, all those just best practices that try to level the playing

field for all students. And, you know, we’ve got some some pretty good size goals as we’re trying to establish 12 models in Texas by 2023. And we’re also working in West Virginia through the West Virginia University. And if we can get that done to use those models to scale out and elevate outcomes in 60 schools in Texas by 2025 and three states and then 300 schools in Texas by 2030 as part of the 60 by 30 Texas initiative and be in five states. And so we’ve we’ve got a lot

of help. The folks with Texas A&M that have been with the Borlaug Foundation know a lot about how to scale things. Their focus has been on scaling innovation and agriculture to prevent starvation in these third world countries. But they feel like the stakes are equally high here as we work in Texas in the US to break generational poverty. Right. And it makes me think a lot when we first met Kim, I was so enamored with this idea that you had businesses located inside schools. I think

you mentioned that. Do you see that as a Roscoe unique piece or is that starting to show up in the others? And can you give some examples of what that looks like to paint a picture for folks of what that looks like in a school? Because it’s fairly unique. Yeah. And that’s, you know, that’s a lot of the rural challenge. You know, you talk about minimal resources, a lot of times minimal opportunities to meaningful STEM pathways and STEM apprenticeship opportunities. And so that’s

why you have to get kind of creative. You know, I tell people all the time, there’s probably easier ways to do STEM than build a veterinary hospital. We’ve glad we’ve got one here in Roscoe and we want it to be the number one rural vet clinic in the in the nation. But we’ve got a meeting this afternoon with Dr. DeDwaller’s the veterinarian and Sun Ray, one of our network districts is building a veterinary hospital and reproduction lab. And so we’re designing even a degree

in embryology and reproduction through Frank Phillips College in West Texas A&M. And that’s just one example of another business partnership is edu maker, the 3D printing and CNC. And those are those are opportunities that that can be a multi million dollar or billion dollar industry, even in the rural sectors. The edge of drone, a lot of these schools are are creating opportunities for their students to get a FAA drone flight certification and have a drone company and

edu build, Throckmorton’s a building a house that they will sell at the end of the year. And you kind of got to get creative, but that’s a lot of the fun in the thing. And a lot of collaboration and a lot of these businesses that started here in Roscoe, these these other schools will be replicating that and even coming up with some of their own because the work based learning in the hands on component, you know, the what the legislature was telling us or the workforce was

telling us is you know, you’re you’re sending us kids that know how to color in the right bubble on the multi choice test, but there’s just not very many jobs where you go and take a multi choice test all day. So how do you how do you bring that real world relevance and work based experience? It’s a challenge, but it’s an opportunity. Cumbie, some of our team were there yesterday, it’s a little school out in East Texas. They’re they’ve partnered with a group called Tech

Smart that’s based in Seattle, I believe, a technology company that provides opportunity for students to learn skills in coding and computer programming, where they’ll bring that into that community. And then they’re going to share that with the agenation network for students to get those credentials and certifications and Tech Smart can hire them to work for them and live right there in Cumbie or right here in Roscoe. So lots of innovation going on with the the rural

job creation through this model. Right. I think it’s it’s such a unique answer to the challenge that’s posed in rural saying we just don’t have that resource here and you really have at CEN thought about how to solve that challenge using technology and STEM and then dual enrollment etc. So as we close out here, it’s been so interesting to learn. I have a parting question for each one of you. So I’ll start with Alton parting thoughts. What recommendation do you have for leaders in

schools who are interested in innovation and they don’t know where to start? So what’s the first step they need to think about and some sage advice from someone who’s been around for a long time in the education business? Well, to me, it all begins with with vision and having an idea of not just possibilities. But what’s that desired state? I learned a long time ago, you set the goal and then figure out how to get there. We have to commit to something and whatever that is. And if you think

about the history of public education, it really was a community valued and based initiative. And we sometimes forget that we have to engage the community and really create community ownership of the work. Because you can get all out there by yourself doing all kinds of things. But if community is not with you, you’ll soon find your legs taken out from under you. So it’s about engaging the community and helping them create an ownership of a desired aspiration,

a shared aspiration. And then you figure out how to get there. Right, that’s so important. Many districts have visions that are written up and approved by the boards. And it’s so important to get real engagement. And that means engagement from everybody, engagement at the margins, engagement in the center, not just those who are willing to show up on the middle of the day at the end of the school, the workday, etc. So making a pointed effort to get out there and get real

community buy on buy in based in real community need. As Kim has been talking about, what’s the vision for the community, which then is reflected in the vision for the school. Thanks, Alton. That was super helpful. Kim, as we wrap up, the two questions are the biggest lesson learned. And then the second part of the question is, if people want to know more, what’s the first step for them to understand more about CEM? Well, I guess the biggest lesson learned is, you know, innovation

is messy work. Not every idea is a great idea. And, you know, for every 10 ideas I’ve had, three of them might be pretty good and seven of them pretty bad. And so you’ve got to have a way to try and and freedom to fail every now and then. And that’s the reality that we’ve got to set up. And we know that, you know, ISDs or independent school districts were designed to produce students with high school diplomas. And that’s about the resources without collaboration. But

Alton mentioned the importance of collaboration. So aligning with triagency where K-12 is aligned with higher ed and workforce. Now you’ve created a lot more capacity to redesign schools to prepare students for their future rather than our past. And so, you know, I always, they say anytime you’re talking about education, you need to quote a philosopher. And so being rural, I always quote Jeff Foxworthy. And Jeff would say, you know, the definition of stupid is to keep doing the same

thing and expect a different result. So, you know, we’ve got to redesign schools to support students through meaningful outcomes. And we’ve got the resources to do it here. We’ll just have the wheel. And I think we do. That’s outstanding. And if people want to learn more, I assume we can they can go to edu.nation.org. I know that there is a significant number of resources on that site. Is that a good first step for them? That would be a great site to go to. That’s our website. And

feel free to contact me, kalexander at edu.nation.org. And I try to respond to all emails. I’m getting a lot of these days around this topic. It seems to be a hot topic, but a lot of opportunity out there to really elevate student outcomes across the nation. That is so true. Really appreciate, Kim Alton, both of you for joining us today, taking time out of your busy days. You have so much good thoughts, so many good thoughts for those in rural education and education in general.

We appreciate your work in the fields and really appreciate all the thoughts you shared today about what does it mean to work with kids that are disadvantaged and making sure that all means all. And that is such a critical piece for not only rural, but for all students in the U.S. So thank you so much for your dedication and innovation. We will keep track of you and we’re big fans of what’s happening down there and look forward to seeing the future of CEN. Thanks so much.

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